limping with ace rags suited?

blueskies

blueskies

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I know limping is bad, but I think hands like A3, A7 suited are like
small pocket pairs. I would rather get in the pot as cheaply as
possible. The hand is vulnerable, and it’s only strong if I hit my
suited cards so I don’t want to build a pot and get called by pocket
pairs and Ax with higher kicker. If someone raises behind me,
depending on the opponent and the pot size, I may call or fold.

I want more people in the pot because if I hit a good or great flop, I
have a big hand. With more people in the pot, there’s more chance I
get paid off by a straight, smaller flush or trips or something.

From the button or CO I will vary play and may open raise.

It seems to work at microstakes. Probably should just fold at higher levels.
 
TPC

TPC

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Just fold at the micros too. That's a loosing play over the long run.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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i find suited Ax, and suited connectors in general, to be way overrated by the average player. in terms of implied odds they are so much worse than small pairs, especially out of position, which is where you'll usually be if you're limping in early positions. that's because draws are inherently tough to play OOP and with these hands you are going to flop draws far far more than you're going to flop made flushes or straights. it is extremely hard to flop a flush compared to flopping a set. and even when you do manage that, it doesn't even tend to pay off as much as sets do. not to mention pairing your A or rag leaves you in an uncertain situation where you're often going to be folding to the first bet anyway, or calling 1 bet and then having no idea where you are on later streets

they're fine hands to steal and make plays with, they offer some cool backup equity and draws that allow you to be aggressive in spots where you otherwise wouldn't. but as hands to play fit or fold with for implied odds, they're not very good imo
 
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BenLZ

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I love Axs, if you got 2-3 limpers behind you go ahead and get in the pot. Lately I've taken a real liking towards hands that have high implied odds and are relatively easy to play. I don't know if I'd call a raise with Axs, but in order to win $ you got to see flops and it doesn't make much sense to raise that hand at the micros when you're given a chance to see the flop cheaply and with 4-6 other players.
 
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budebuzz

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Fold! Any time you play that you are way behind. The only time I try is if I'm in the blinds and limp or if I haven't see a card for days and am real desperate, which seem like a lot lately :(
 
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Ubercroz

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raise everything, limp nothing, if someone is betting then 3bet, is someone 3bets then 4bet.

You will always win and never lose.

edit: just read what I wrote and I think that is actually a losing strategy, but still dont limp: if you want to limp, bet. If you dont want to bet fold. If its good enough for a limp its good enough for a raise.
 
damours21

damours21

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if there is 4 or 5 people that all limped in front of you then your getting the right odds to call. i play 5nl rush it works out a decent amount cuz other limpers have small pp's most of time and if they hit their set they will stack off even with 3 to a flush out there
 
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edogg503

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I know limping is bad, but I think hands like A3, A7 suited are like
small pocket pairs. I would rather get in the pot as cheaply as
possible. The hand is vulnerable, and it’s only strong if I hit my
suited cards so I don’t want to build a pot and get called by pocket
pairs and Ax with higher kicker. If someone raises behind me,
depending on the opponent and the pot size, I may call or fold.

I want more people in the pot because if I hit a good or great flop, I
have a big hand. With more people in the pot, there’s more chance I
get paid off by a straight, smaller flush or trips or something.

From the button or CO I will vary play and may open raise.

It seems to work at microstakes. Probably should just fold at higher levels.

well no i would not want to play anything raggy because i want to a tight image so when i do rarely bluff it will look more beliveable.:cheers:
 
Vollycat

Vollycat

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Position, and typically only in NL. With position, early position limpers, and rocks on your left...see it cheap.
 
TPC

TPC

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impossible to squeeze an all limped pot. That's not what a squeeze is.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I like open shoving Axs much more then limping with it.
 
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Ubercroz

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impossible to squeeze an all limped pot. That's not what a squeeze is.

oic

I suppose isolate, punish limpers, steal limped pot, or some other terms apply better.

So why not do those, since we cant squeeze a limped pot?
 
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baudib1

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I've found suited Ax to be unprofitable in EP at almost all stakes. In LP they can be profitable and yes I certainly limp behind with them in some situations and raise them in others. Calling a raise with them is going to be another matter altogether, you need to be very good postflop to do it profitably.

The problem with them in EP is that you will flop draws or very weak one-pair hands so often and people who have you beat will charge you/not pay you off when you hit...or they have your top pair/weak kicker beat and you pay them off. Or they bluff you with second pair and you don't know wtf to do.

In position everything is better, if there is heavy action on an A-high board you can get away from it. In multiway pots they do pay off handsomely because everyone is playing suited cards in limped pots and you'll win huge pots when you make the nuts vs. their 8-high flush.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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good job, WV. you can join my grammar nit club
 
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bubonicplay

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blanko wins. Generally if you're playing SCs/Axs for pure fit or fold equity you'll be losing. Look it up in HEM/PT yourself. If you're playing it to be able to put pressure on people, bluff raise a ton of flops, take advantage of backdoor draws, and all that cool stuff that's when it has the most value. Also think about what other players can do when you're only limping small pairs/Axs. If you never have strong hands in your range they can raise your limps with impunity and you can't do anything unless you start limping strong hands too and that ends up being -ev just for the sake of balancing a play which probably is -ev anyway. So yeah just raise or fold and generally at the micros with Axs just fold in EP.
 
zek

zek

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I know limping is bad, but I think hands like A3, A7 suited are like
small pocket pairs. I would rather get in the pot as cheaply as
possible.
It seems to work at microstakes. Probably should just fold at higher levels.

There is nothing wrong with getting hands in cheap and seeing a flop. I limp my AK most of the time too. I would be folding the crappy Ax hands you are mentioning unless I was limping from the button with a lot of calls in front of me. I mix up my raises and limps with the same range of hands, and use the pot button for my raises when I raise so I don't end up having a problem with different hands having different size raises associated with them.
 
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bubonicplay

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Yeah seriously do you not like getting money in the pot when you beat all but 2 hands = 1%? It's not against the rules to win the pot when you don't hit and it's extremely hard to do that when you limp with AK.
 
dontshiveagit

dontshiveagit

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i feel like i always get dominated by kickers like AJ AK AQ when i try to play a suited A5 but when it hits it pays out nice :)
 
Weregoat

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if there is 4 or 5 people that all limped in front of you then your getting the right odds to call. i play 5nl rush it works out a decent amount cuz other limpers have small pp's most of time and if they hit their set they will stack off even with 3 to a flush out there

If they flop a set and you flop a flush, they're still like 35% to win.

If they flop a set and you flop four to a flush they're ~35% to make a full house, and you're ~35% to make a flush.

If they flop middle set and you flop bottom pair and top pair, you are stacking off and only have 9% or so to make the winning fullhouse.

This hand gains a lot of equity when the flop comes with top pair and four to a flush, but I never want to run into a set on the flop ever. If I have Ah3h and my opponent has AdKd and the flop comes As9h5h, and we stack off on this street, I still have my nine cards to draw to a flush, and my three remaining threes to hit, not to mention a running straight, which just guestimating would put me somewhere at a little better than a coinflip to get there, providing I don't get counterfeitted or my opponent doesn't improve to top two.

All these hands are coming from behind, except the flopped flush which isn't going to get action, barring high PP's out of position, sets (which are very live) and maybe the occaisonal misplayed two pair.

Limping with AXs and flopping top two pair or the nut flush = no action (as you hold all the cards that are worth calling a bet with) and your villain(s) don't, because the flop hit you, not them.

On the flip-side, I have seen a lot of fair pots dragged in in some interesting 3-way flopped flushes (the odds of that are SLIM!), but overall your action is too likely to be dead on a hand that you come up on.

So much so that you won't get called by somebody you're not ahead of, and even then, they're still very, very live (barring a flopped flush where they have something like one pair, a smaller flush with no straight flush draw, etc, or your ace pairs killing their pocket kings or whatever...)

Overall I'd say it's a losing move to limp with this hand. If you want to raise with it from position, then c-bet with it and try to win the pot before showdown. If you ever get looked up your table image is going to take a dive, so keep that in mind too.
 
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bubonicplay

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Basically if you're playing hands like A3hh flop comes 972r one being a heart. Villain bets you should be comfortable raising. If the thought of raising on this flop with this hand never even crossed your mind I can pretty much guarantee you are not profiting by playing these hands. You can't just be playing for combo draws/2pair+. If you're getting aggressive with backdoor draws and barreling a lot and putting pressure on people when you flop/turn equity that's when you can probably play them profitably. And it's extremely hard to do this and rep strong hands when you just limp preflop.
 
zek

zek

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How much do you charge for coaching?

I don't coach. If that was sarcasm sorry wasn't sure since no smiley. :)

What about all the cases where you get limps raised or raises reraised? Call and miss what do you do since you are acting first? You call hoping to hit a 4-5 flush? You reraise and get called and are out of position. You call the raise and now someone else goes all-in with their probably medium pocket what do you do then? Everyone limps and there is an A on the flop but someone probably with a better Ax starts calling you down? You'd have to be too lucky to consistently limp or raise weak A's like A3s from early position at a full 9-10 person table.

My biggest argument against Ax being like small pocket pairs is that your weak aces are much harder to play post flop. After the flop you know if you have a set, over pair, the board is above you, and what kind of players are in the hand with you.
 
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