Limping AA/KK utg?

Raise-a-Thon

Raise-a-Thon

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I was just wondering how everybody else plays top hands under the gun in a regular 9 person holdem table. It works beautifully for me when people cooperate and raise, but I saw how it can completely go awry yesterday when it didn't pan out for me. (K6 checked the bb and flopped a set) I usually don't do this everytime i get aces or kings first to act; it depends on if i see a short stack that could push or if somebodys on tilt, etc. Is it a good play to limp these hands, or should you just raise so there's no chance of a cheap limp-around? How does everyone else play AA, KK, etc UTG? Thanks!
 
dj11

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I'll go in the 80% raise, 20% limp category. Usually when I limp this, if anyone raises, I'll be 3 betting them. With either of those hands I'm thinking how can I get as many chips in the middle as possible preflop. Sometimes that might call for a min 3bet, creating the illusion I am wanting to try a steal. Obviously the KK hand has the caveat of not wanting to see an ace on the flop, as more than likely anyone who called a 3bet would probably be holding an ace.
 
MrDaMan

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A LOT depends on the opponents playing styles and my stack size. I'll sometimes slow play A/A utg *If I'm ahead* and I trust my reads on my opponents. And then you have to have the discipline to lay them down if you think you're beat.

If there's a maniac at the table who raises every hand I like to just call with them and let the maniac make the raise, if it's heads up I call, if other players call I re-raise to get them out.

Most of the time, I don't slow play aces especially utg, it may be top pair but it's just one pair and can be beat by a large variety of hands post flop.

When my stack is at buy-in/average or less I don't like to fool around and usually play them straight. Of course circumstances could dictate a different play but aces or kings are easily beat you do want to get heads up if possible.
 
Munchrs

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at a tight table i raise 100% or 99% of the time.

At a LAG table my play would vary more as i am more likely to get my limp raise and not hav ethe raiser fold when i 3 bet(this happens alot a Tight tables). More of a 80/20 raise at a LAG table.

In general raising to isolate is better as AA/KK dont play all that well in multiway pots.
 
joosebuck

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realize how quickly it can turn ugly, and you're usually better off. KK/AA makes their money on the first two streets. unless you have someone that cc's or bets out every street with top pair, you should be worried when people stick around.
 
J

Jle90

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normally i raise with it,because limping often doesnt give me the chips i want from my opponent...and also often i lost then because the bb has soemthing like 38 and flop is 88 or so ;) but if i raise he is folding this hand preflop
 
KenFischer

KenFischer

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Most importantly, the cards I am holding have no bearing on how I am coming into the pot. You were asking about AA or KK in early position, but I play them the same as I would play JTo, 44, 96s or AKo. My position dictates if a hand is playable, but once I decide to play it, I'm playing it the same as any other hand from that position.

Every time I arrive at a new table, my first order of business is generally to look for the aggressive players. I want to quickly find out who likes to raise preflop, especially those that come in for a raise with limpers in front of them. Based on this, I can generally determine which positions are likely to be favorable for a raise after I come into the pot, and those positions are the ones which I will limp with any cards that I choose to play. I can then either re-raise or fold, depending on the cards that I am holding.

For example, if there are two aggresive pre-flop raisers at my table, then I will only open-limp in the positions where I am acting before them. If they have already passed, I will raise if I'm coming in, and if they limp, I will pass unless I have a hand that can stand a reraise. (Of course it's possible that they are limping with a multi-way hand, but it's far more likely that the limp is a trap.)

Any time that a major change occurs (I get moved, a new player arrives at the table, or one of the aggressive players busts-out or slows-down) I re-evaluate the table positions.

Ideally, whenever I limp strong hands based on position, the table dynamics work as planned and I get raised, but sometimes it does just get called and then checked on the BB. When this happens, I play very carefully and understand that I'm probably going to want to keep the pot small unless I flop a monster.

This style of play only works if you have the discipline to fold an overpair (even AA) against significant action when the pot was unraised preflop. I find that the times that I wind up with limpers caught between the original raiser and my reraise more than make up for it.

Good luck! :)
 
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1122phoenix

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When I first learned to play I usually bet these heavy regardless of position and player types at the table. But as I got better at putting people on hands and draws - player profiling, my position etc. I would slow play and change up the betting and generally get better value for them. The litmus test I used to see if I was ready for extracting more value for them was to do player profiling and identify "ace callers" - these are callers who will call large preflop bets with ace rags. If an A came on the board I had to have the disipline to laydown my KK. If, you don't have the disipline to laydown the KK than don't slow play them.
 
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drawingneardead

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Let us be clear on what we are discussing. When we limp from the UTG seat with a big pair we are allowing someone to open for us so we can reraise. If we don't expect a late position raise, we don't limp.

There are multiple ways to slowplay a hand like AA. Some have favorable risk/reward and some don't. Slowplaying your big pair before the flop offers a terrible (inherent) risk/reward ratio, whereas after a friendly flop you will find much safer ways to slowplay. The reason I say "inherent" is because the style of your opponents and your image at the table affect the risk/reward ration tremendously.

Im not the type to be ambiguous, so I will be direct:

If you don't expect another player to raise, limping with your big pair IS misplaying your hand. That statement is not debatable. The beauty of AA as opposed to KK or QQ is that if you don't get the preflop action you want after limping, you still always have the overpair (+ the deception you have added preflop).

That being said, limping from any position with KK,QQ is pretty much always a mistake in a full game. If you are gonna get frisky with a big pair, do it with AA. If you don't mind mucking JJ or TT after a bad flop, then be deceptive with those hands before the flop. Or wait to get frisky with your big pairs until you are playing shorthanded(a situation that debunks all the advice i have given so far lol).I guess the point is this: NEVER SLOWPLAY A HAND THAT U WON'T BE ABLE TO LAY DOWN LATER.

If you attempt a limp-raise with a big pair and noone bites, you have devalued your hand and you must be prepared to muck if necessary. If you cannot do that, or if your reads are marginal, stick to a standard raise b4 the flop with your big pairs.
 
Chiefer

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normally i raise with it,because limping often doesnt give me the chips i want from my opponent...and also often i lost then because the bb has soemthing like 38 and flop is 88 or so ;) but if i raise he is folding this hand preflop


this is quite possibly the most uninteligable post of the day. however he is right. all of you wrote your diatribe about limping with AA or KK blah blah blah. why the hell would you limp i ask. there is NO reason to limp with AA,KK. none what so ever. position or not.
 
Munchrs

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this is quite possibly the most uninteligable post of the day. however he is right. all of you wrote your diatribe about limping with AA or KK blah blah blah. why the hell would you limp i ask. there is NO reason to limp with AA,KK. none what so ever. position or not.

To maximize value against Aggro opponents who will try to bluff every pot.
 
K

Kennyseven

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I say if you have to limp with AA Utg to try and get paid off on that hand you are not setting up your monsters like you should be by being aggressive. If you are a passive player then maybe limping utg might be good. Remember it is psychological warfare and in the long run being aggressive with your other hands will set up big payoffs for your monsters.
 
C

CfPoker

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Saying never limp with them is wrong... you have to vary your play a bit. If I know you NEVER limp with AA and I see you limp in a hand I can decide with certainty you don't have AA, which is obviously bad for you.

If you do limp with them UTG you should be hoping for someone else to raise, with the intention of reraising them. If you end up in a limped pot with multiple opponents then I'd try and treat it like a lower pocket pair, ie, trying to hit a set.
 
zachvac

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Against the majority of online players (even CC players probably) there's no reason to limp AA/KK UTG. But if you are playing very observant opponents it's crucial to mix it up. If you are going to limp though I see no reason to 3-bet it preflop, that just gives away the strength of your hand and everyone and their mother knows you were trying to trap with it. If however you see a flop with it (and you need to believe most of the time you'll get a raise to isolate without you having to raise), the ranges your opponents will attempt to put you on will be extremely distorted. Of course if the flop comes 356 this could work against you, because an AK may try to steal this pot if you had raised, figuring that unless you have a PP he has you beat, but with the limp-call you could be a donk playing 36 or something. But say the flop comes down KQ5, an AK is going to believe they are good here, and will put in a ton of chips if they think you're trying to steal since your play makes no sense and AA clearly is not part of your range ;).

But in the majority of games people from CC will play in, there's no point in limping AA/KK UTG. Build the pot, you want big pots with big hands, and this isolates as well minimizing the odds of you getting sucked out on.
 
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drawingneardead

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I say if you have to limp with AA Utg to try and get paid off on that hand you are not setting up your monsters like you should be by being aggressive.


Well said. This is a problem I have struggled with in the past. I am a near-exclusive cash game (brick and Mortar) player. I am just reteaching myself solid tournament play.

The type of play in question is not even a winner in my games. It is not even close in any type of tourney (other than short-handed). Like Ken said: If you feel the need to make that play very often, you need to add a ton of transparency to your game.

EDIT: There is also something to be said about opponents making a 2nd best hand or having 2nd best hole cards. Many amateur players do not realize that these are the situations u live for (especially in cash games). You cannot control another players hole cards and if noone has a reasonable hand, you may not get paid off. Going back to what I mentioned earlier about the difference between the risk/reward ratio (of slowplaying) b4 the flop compared to after... That ratio is not good when letting players catch up on the flop. The flop is just as likely to make your hand 2nd best as it is to make someone else a 2nd best hand that will pay u off. (often times more likely)

If you are looking to let someone make top pair in order to get paid off on your potential overpair, you are gonna be laying down to 2pair or a set very often. The risk is not worth the reward. You will get the action u want b4 the flop if a player has reasonable "2nd best hole cards" and that is the reason you allow them to open for u. If you try to get paid off when everyone has rags, you taking a large risk for a small reward...
 
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B

Bentheman87

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Once in a while it's a good play IMO especially if you're at an aggressive table. If you do limp and no one raises and you get a lot of action on the flop you have to be able to let AA go. I've seen so many players slowplay AA or KK in EP and just not be able to get away from it no matter what postflop. You should let go of it more easily if it was a limped pot than if it was a raised pot.
 
kadafi

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Once in a while it's a good play IMO especially if you're at an aggressive table. If you do limp and no one raises and you get a lot of action on the flop you have to be able to let AA go. I've seen so many players slowplay AA or KK in EP and just not be able to get away from it no matter what postflop. You should let go of it more easily if it was a limped pot than if it was a raised pot.



Letting go of KK should be simple if an ace hits on the flop imo, i do it a lot depending on weather anyone bets it. If im first to act ill bet regardless but if im raised ill let it go without a thought.
 
Makwa

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I'll limp if I'm anticipating a raise from a maniac, otherwise its usually too risky to end up multiway with AA, you will often end up crying.
 
W

WOBogey

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Limping with AA or KK utg

agree with munchers. Against maniacs I will let them bet into me until I want to lower the hammer.
Otherwise I raise 3-5 times bb to isolate. Each one is only a pair and can be had in many horrible ways:p
 
D

donkeykiller

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Welp idepend on what limits you play as well usually if you rasie at .02/.04 no limit theyll call anyway so bet it up preflop now high limit could catch someone off gaurd by limping in and make notes notes are big thing on these people.
 
P

poisme

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Oh Yeh, Sure, uh huh! Well guess what?

After reading all the suggestions about AA ad KK, tonight I had the big AA and remembering all the great suggestions I quickly put about 80% of my chips in. IMMEDIATELY EVERYONE FOLDED!!!. Lol. Guess I'll just limp in as usual from now on.:eek: Fun game anyway. Poisme
 
G

glworden

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Very good discussion. And again, it always comes back to "it depends." Poker is so situational. I think it's a bad idea to decide that you'll ALWAYS play a certain hand the same way. It depends on so many different things: position, stack sizes, your opponents, your table image, who's on tilt, what are you trying to accomplish, etc. etc.....

The best style is no style. Always be ready to adjust to whatever the conditions are and whatever opportunities present themselves.

But in answer to your question: No. NEVER limp with AA/KK. Haha.
 
G

glworden

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After reading all the suggestions about AA ad KK, tonight I had the big AA and remembering all the great suggestions I quickly put about 80% of my chips in. IMMEDIATELY EVERYONE FOLDED!!!. Lol. Guess I'll just limp in as usual from now on.:eek: Fun game anyway. Poisme


Well, at least you didn't lose! Who said to dump your stack in? An unraised all-in (you were pot committed) with any big pair in a full ring game is a pretty amateurish play if you ask me. ;)
 
Effexor

Effexor

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There's a bit of range between a raise and putting 80% of your stack in PF. Nobody suggested this amount, go back and reread the responses.

I almost always raise PF. One recent time that I didn't, was because the person in the BB was near %100 of the time raising if limped to him. Of course he didn't raise, and I didn't get a chance to reraise, and like 43 people got to see a cheap flop.

it didn't end well for me.
 
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