Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
You dont take pot control lines with AA!
You dont take pot control lines with AA!
LuckyChippy
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
That's a pretty big assumption lol. Maybe it's true.
LuckyChippy
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Looking at calling 3-bets OOP. I've been stoving quite a bit and I can't hit on a range that would be proftable at all against a purely value 3-bet range, even "bad" 3-betters (JJ+,ATs+,KJs+,AJo+,KJo+). JJ/1010 is about 50/50 and JJ-TT,AQs-AJs,AQo is the same. Basically just don't bother?
LuckyChippy
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Depends on who is 3betting, positions, stats, your image, etc. etc.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Most of the time yes
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
S93
Legend
Silver Level
He is playing 6max.
Folding JJ/TT most of the time to a 3bet with thouse hands at 6max would be a pretty big leak imo.
S
Skaplun
Rock Star
Silver Level
you dont have a leak, you have the overbearing ego of a child who succeeded.
You started playing probably with starry eyes and anxious to learn. you were hesitant and took every hand you got with a grain of salt. look at your 2NL stats 12\10!!
and then you wen up to 22\20... wtf??
you wanna tell me you learned how to play all those hands profiably?
you are 3betting 8%... why?
what are you trying to prove?
you started stealing wider, you folded postflop less and now you come here to ask for advice.
you played winning poker, 19.28 bb\100 is pretty damn good. so you went ahead and decided to change that because you managed to do so for 2 whole weeks?
get a grip. you were doing well, you were doing really well and then you "opened your game up"
pfft
You started playing probably with starry eyes and anxious to learn. you were hesitant and took every hand you got with a grain of salt. look at your 2NL stats 12\10!!
and then you wen up to 22\20... wtf??
you wanna tell me you learned how to play all those hands profiably?
you are 3betting 8%... why?
what are you trying to prove?
you started stealing wider, you folded postflop less and now you come here to ask for advice.
you played winning poker, 19.28 bb\100 is pretty damn good. so you went ahead and decided to change that because you managed to do so for 2 whole weeks?
get a grip. you were doing well, you were doing really well and then you "opened your game up"
pfft
S93
Legend
Silver Level
Its obvs. situational(like every thing) but im pretty sure its wider then the 4-6% it needs to be for us to make a profit against that range.
Im not saying im stacking off every time or anything and folding when u open UTG and a nitty reg 3bets u is fine but BTNvsCO/BvsB dynamic is defenatly there even at super micros and people dont just 3bet KK+.
Im not saying im stacking off every time or anything and folding when u open UTG and a nitty reg 3bets u is fine but BTNvsCO/BvsB dynamic is defenatly there even at super micros and people dont just 3bet KK+.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
This is where it all starts getting hazy. Its a simple question what is the average 3bet stat at 10/25nl 6max?
If you were to ask me the same question at FR I would say 85% of people play under 3%
10% of people play about 5% and then maybe 5% play 6-20%
So its not so complex that the answer cant be put into words!
S93
Legend
Silver Level
By running PT3 report 3bet maddness and editing filter to >100 hands it shows average preflop 3bet at 25nl 6max at 5.07% in my database.
Granted my database is realitivly new since my comp crashed but its still a decent sample.
Dont have enough hands to run it at 10nl but if any one that plays alot of 10nl 6max would be kind enough to run the report u can download it here http://www.pokertracker.com/repository/?f[page]=1 under 3bet maddness.
Depending on size of database u might want to change the hand sample filter.
Granted my database is realitivly new since my comp crashed but its still a decent sample.
Dont have enough hands to run it at 10nl but if any one that plays alot of 10nl 6max would be kind enough to run the report u can download it here http://www.pokertracker.com/repository/?f[page]=1 under 3bet maddness.
Depending on size of database u might want to change the hand sample filter.
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
OK so 5%
Now thats a mean average, I would suggest the modal average is lower.
But lets just consider 5%
99+ AQo+ KQs
88+ AKo AQs KQs
or something similar to that.
TT is behind that range and JJ is only barely ahead.
Of course you wont get the money in calling a 3bet so although JJ is slightly ahead of that 3bet range, if you 4bet JJ you are basically bluffing as JJ wont do well against a 5bet shove from someone who bets 3bets 5%
Now thats a mean average, I would suggest the modal average is lower.
But lets just consider 5%
99+ AQo+ KQs
88+ AKo AQs KQs
or something similar to that.
TT is behind that range and JJ is only barely ahead.
Of course you wont get the money in calling a 3bet so although JJ is slightly ahead of that 3bet range, if you 4bet JJ you are basically bluffing as JJ wont do well against a 5bet shove from someone who bets 3bets 5%
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Now what I'm getting at is this, how can the standard advice be that instant folding TT is wrong when TT is behind the average 3bet range?
and how can the standard advice be to get the money in with JJ when JJ is bearly ahead of the average 3bet range, but behind the 5bet shove range?
and how can the standard advice be to get the money in with JJ when JJ is bearly ahead of the average 3bet range, but behind the 5bet shove range?
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
Sorry to pick on you S93 but I keep hearing people say that hands like TT and JJ are no brainer shoves but the average villian isnt playing a wide enough range to do this with.
Where this becomes very apparent is when a player has only a few hands on the villian in question and therefore assigns him a 3bet and 5bet range where hands like TT and JJ are good when in fact this assumption isnt backed up by the stats in peoples DB.
In general you dont start to see player betting the button and blinds wide enough until you start seeing 3bet figures of 6-8%+
5% and under usually denotes a flat range that isnt varying with position.
When you start seeing 3bet stats of 8% you will usually see 3bet stats of 6-12% from the blinds and 6-12% on the button and figures of 2-4% from other positions (maybe a bit higher from the CO)
Where this becomes very apparent is when a player has only a few hands on the villian in question and therefore assigns him a 3bet and 5bet range where hands like TT and JJ are good when in fact this assumption isnt backed up by the stats in peoples DB.
In general you dont start to see player betting the button and blinds wide enough until you start seeing 3bet figures of 6-8%+
5% and under usually denotes a flat range that isnt varying with position.
When you start seeing 3bet stats of 8% you will usually see 3bet stats of 6-12% from the blinds and 6-12% on the button and figures of 2-4% from other positions (maybe a bit higher from the CO)
S93
Legend
Silver Level
IP we can obvs just flat if we determine that we are ahead of his 3bet range but behind to his shoving range.
When u 3bet some one in 6max OOP what postion are u usualy in?
The blinds, people expect u to have a wider 3bet range from the blind vs a LP open which increases all ranges add in dead money and yes, stacking off becomes profitable.
And no one in this thread ever said TT/JJ where no brainer shoves, I simply said folding them as a default vs a 3bet would be a leak imo.
When u 3bet some one in 6max OOP what postion are u usualy in?
The blinds, people expect u to have a wider 3bet range from the blind vs a LP open which increases all ranges add in dead money and yes, stacking off becomes profitable.
And no one in this thread ever said TT/JJ where no brainer shoves, I simply said folding them as a default vs a 3bet would be a leak imo.
S93
Legend
Silver Level
Why would I fold a hand that has (slight) postive equity vs villains range?
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 49.379% 48.34% 01.04% 293019600 6296226.00 { 88+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }
Hand 1: 50.621% 49.58% 01.04% 300543564 6296226.00 { JJ }
Stu_Ungar
Legend
Silver Level
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
No. We need to be stacking JJ and AK almost always. TT usually. You're only looking at our EV when called but we get plenty of folds as well and if we're folding TT/JJ/AK our stacking range is just much too narrow and we become very exploitable. If you're only stack QQ+ people should be 3betting your opens like 100%.