S93
Legend
Silver Level
+ if u just call and get into a 6way pot with AK no one is gonna put u on it and u can stack the other guys that have A2 and A7 when the flop comes A94...
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Ya I know rite? Cuz when they call with AQ we both have ace high! Lol!
Seriously now FP, did you really think you could have a legit discussion about AK on this board?
S93
Legend
Silver Level
A value bet= bet u make because u belive you are ahead of villains range and expect him to call with worse.
How does that not apply to AK prf? Isnt Ax and broadways and SC calling?
Also AK likes low SPR because that justifys stacking postflop with one pair hands(like your most often just gonna make with AK) and you not geting the SPR down by calling or limping prf.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
FP was hoping someone would come up with the answer I gave at #2, but he then deleted it because giving it away too early was going to kill the discussion.
In his ebook "Easy Game, vol 1", belugawhale (Andrew Seidman) lists the 3 good reasons to bet. First one is for value when you expect to get called by worse. Second one is as a bluff, when you expect to fold better hands. Neither really apply here. And third one is maliciously not listed in FP's poll, which is unfortunate since it's the main reason why we 4bet AK preflop against a reg 100bb deep.
thepokerkid123
Visionary
Silver Level
4betting AK is basically never ahead of a calling/raising range which makes it hard to say it's for value, as we're better off if they fold. At best it's a flip and at worst it's about 40% (against their range). In that sense it's a bluff that balances our 4bet range which lets us get some more value on our AA/KK/QQ 4bet shoves.
By the time we've gotten to the 4th bet there's enough money in the pot that 40% or better is good enough that we just want the money in so that we can see 5 cards, plus we get some fold equity.
By the time we've gotten to the 4th bet there's enough money in the pot that 40% or better is good enough that we just want the money in so that we can see 5 cards, plus we get some fold equity.
Double-A
Visionary
Silver Level
I picked bluff.
What are we hoping our opponent has, AQ?
But, I would prefer "it depends". Against a maniac, tilting, or really bad opponent it could be a value bet. Against a TAG pre-flop player it could be a bluff.
Against a player who is good enough to lay down JJ-QQ it could be a value-bluff?
What are we hoping our opponent has, AQ?
But, I would prefer "it depends". Against a maniac, tilting, or really bad opponent it could be a value bet. Against a TAG pre-flop player it could be a bluff.
Against a player who is good enough to lay down JJ-QQ it could be a value-bluff?
M
marknz88
Rock Star
Silver Level
4bet bluff to even out our range is what makes most sense. Like mentioned above, really what hands are we taking to value town?
I have so much trouble with AK that i tend to just flat call 3bets and evaluate the flop. I hardly 4bet it unless opponent is quiet lose and has a tendency to 4bet often out of agro rather than because he has AA/KK
I have so much trouble with AK that i tend to just flat call 3bets and evaluate the flop. I hardly 4bet it unless opponent is quiet lose and has a tendency to 4bet often out of agro rather than because he has AA/KK
Kasanova King
Visionary
Silver Level
spiderman637
RIP Buck
Silver Level
With AK offsuit i would just 2bet, but defenitly i would 4bet with suited AKs...
And if ur talking about late phase of the game, then i would love to shove with AK suited...I have seen and experienced it work positively many times...
And if ur talking about late phase of the game, then i would love to shove with AK suited...I have seen and experienced it work positively many times...
S93
Legend
Silver Level
You really dont understand sarcasim?
F Paulsson
euro love
Silver Level
The thing about AK is that it's quite possibly the most overrated hand in NLHE cash games. There are probably several reasons for this, not the least is that it's a hand that you'll virtually never lay down preflop in tournaments - but that's because you're operating with much smaller stack sizes.
I'm obviously not saying that anyone should start looking for folds with AK in ring games, because that's going to be a huge leak. But it's important to understand how to make the most of it, and while I probably 4bet AK more than nine times out of ten I'm dealt it and someone 3bets me, the "why" is never, ever, "value." Not if you define a value bet as something that has positive expectation when called, and 4bets with AK most certainly don't - not versus other regs, at least.
So is it a bluff? In some sense, it is. What makes 4betting with AK so special is that you are - typically - ahead of your opponent's range with the hand when he 3-bets, but his range obviously changes once he decides to shove over your 4-bet. And versus his new range, you're a dog. You're going to have to make a crying call because of the pot odds, but you're not going in as a favorite versus his range.
Belgo, in the later edited post, called it "picking up the dead money" which is a pretty good way to explain where the value in 4-betting AK comes from. It's a situation not entirely unlike betting with JJ on a K-Q-x board, because we're probably ahead when we make the bet but we're behind when the other guy doesn't fold. An important difference between the two scenarios is that we're not (typically) forced to call a raise with JJ on that board, but we are committed when we 4bet AK.
Another way to look at it is to adopt a fixed limit perspective. In limit games, it's often correct to raise with hands that rate to be behind your opponent's range when called, but they'll force "incorrect folds" where "incorrect" means that they'll fold a hand that they wouldn't if they knew what you had. For example:
$1/$2 6-max game 100bb effective stack, I open AK UTG to $6. Reg 3-bets to $21 on the button with QJo, and I 4-bet to $50. He's getting about 7:3 on a call, and versus my specific hand, he'd be right to look at a flop. Of course, he doesn't know that, and so he can't call. He has to consider my range, which includes AA and KK versus which he's crushed. He's making a "bad fold" in some Sklanskyan sense, and that means we gain.
Does that make it a bluff? No-limit games usually think of bluffing as something we do with the worst hand, but limit specialists are pretty used to raising with the best hand to force incorrect folds.
Having said all that, there are times where folding AK preflop is really the best play. Out of position versus a tight 3-bettor is a good example; if the guy in the example above 3-bets only 4% on the button, I have to let it go. I have great equity versus his range, but 4betting will only lead to me getting stacks in versus a range I can't beat, and while he might certainly make "bad folds" if I raise, he doesn't have enough hands in his range to make up for the times that I stack off. I also can't call, because I have severely negative implied odds. In position versus a really tight 3-bettor, it's often fine to just flat AK and give up when you miss, but out of position there's no shame in folding it.
I'm obviously not saying that anyone should start looking for folds with AK in ring games, because that's going to be a huge leak. But it's important to understand how to make the most of it, and while I probably 4bet AK more than nine times out of ten I'm dealt it and someone 3bets me, the "why" is never, ever, "value." Not if you define a value bet as something that has positive expectation when called, and 4bets with AK most certainly don't - not versus other regs, at least.
So is it a bluff? In some sense, it is. What makes 4betting with AK so special is that you are - typically - ahead of your opponent's range with the hand when he 3-bets, but his range obviously changes once he decides to shove over your 4-bet. And versus his new range, you're a dog. You're going to have to make a crying call because of the pot odds, but you're not going in as a favorite versus his range.
Belgo, in the later edited post, called it "picking up the dead money" which is a pretty good way to explain where the value in 4-betting AK comes from. It's a situation not entirely unlike betting with JJ on a K-Q-x board, because we're probably ahead when we make the bet but we're behind when the other guy doesn't fold. An important difference between the two scenarios is that we're not (typically) forced to call a raise with JJ on that board, but we are committed when we 4bet AK.
Another way to look at it is to adopt a fixed limit perspective. In limit games, it's often correct to raise with hands that rate to be behind your opponent's range when called, but they'll force "incorrect folds" where "incorrect" means that they'll fold a hand that they wouldn't if they knew what you had. For example:
$1/$2 6-max game 100bb effective stack, I open AK UTG to $6. Reg 3-bets to $21 on the button with QJo, and I 4-bet to $50. He's getting about 7:3 on a call, and versus my specific hand, he'd be right to look at a flop. Of course, he doesn't know that, and so he can't call. He has to consider my range, which includes AA and KK versus which he's crushed. He's making a "bad fold" in some Sklanskyan sense, and that means we gain.
Does that make it a bluff? No-limit games usually think of bluffing as something we do with the worst hand, but limit specialists are pretty used to raising with the best hand to force incorrect folds.
Having said all that, there are times where folding AK preflop is really the best play. Out of position versus a tight 3-bettor is a good example; if the guy in the example above 3-bets only 4% on the button, I have to let it go. I have great equity versus his range, but 4betting will only lead to me getting stacks in versus a range I can't beat, and while he might certainly make "bad folds" if I raise, he doesn't have enough hands in his range to make up for the times that I stack off. I also can't call, because I have severely negative implied odds. In position versus a really tight 3-bettor, it's often fine to just flat AK and give up when you miss, but out of position there's no shame in folding it.
NineLions
Advanced beginner
Silver Level
StormRaven
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
I'm very interested in this discussion because my playing of AK has been flawed.
I used to play it very aggressively, and found myself losing more than winning with the hand. Pf I would almost always reraise it for value and call a shove.
Then I switched the way I play it, I would only 3 bet it and fold it to a shove if I've got 100bb, if I was ss I would call the shove.
Now, depending on stats of my opps, I will just call a 3bet if I can have 2 opps or less. If I'm looking at more than that, I will 4 bet for value if my opps are nits and 4 bet higher or shove if my opps are lags.
*I'm very interested in the "last thing" not yet mentioned here that Belgo was speaking about above.
EDIT: When I read through this I completely missed that there was a 2nd page! I am just now seeing FP's response and it makes a lot of sense to me.
I used to play it very aggressively, and found myself losing more than winning with the hand. Pf I would almost always reraise it for value and call a shove.
Then I switched the way I play it, I would only 3 bet it and fold it to a shove if I've got 100bb, if I was ss I would call the shove.
Now, depending on stats of my opps, I will just call a 3bet if I can have 2 opps or less. If I'm looking at more than that, I will 4 bet for value if my opps are nits and 4 bet higher or shove if my opps are lags.
*I'm very interested in the "last thing" not yet mentioned here that Belgo was speaking about above.
EDIT: When I read through this I completely missed that there was a 2nd page! I am just now seeing FP's response and it makes a lot of sense to me.
BelgoSuisse
Legend
Silver Level
To illustrate this, here is my lifetime graph filtered for AK, which I play quite aggressively. The SD line is negative so when I do get to showdown with it i'm usually a dog, but i pick up so much money by making villains fold (the NSD line) that the hand is still a big profit maker.
Attachments
StormRaven
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
This is impressive Belgo! Your graph has kind of driven the point home to me. I definitely need to continue playing this hand aggressively, but only if I think I can make my opps fold before sd. TY for posting this!
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Thwarted! Graphs and giant blocks of text that make good sense triumph over "AK is a drawing hand" smacktards .
I really like that "picking up the dead money" thing as a way to describe when you're not bluffing or v-betting. Clarkmiester theorem'ing with like a set/two pair comes to mind.
.I really like that "picking up the dead money" thing as a way to describe when you're not bluffing or v-betting. Clarkmiester theorem'ing with like a set/two pair comes to mind.
Weregoat
Visionary
Silver Level
I know I'm getting to this party a little bit late, but I'll throw my cents in. Depending on the villain's 3-bet %/range, you can get more information from the hand. If you 4-bet this pot you are essentially playing for stacks - and while you're a slight dog to even 22, a 4-bet is going to make hands like JJ think about a fold, depending on your villain's read on the hand and you. It's partially for bluff, and you're partially locking yourself in for value.
If you can convince your opponent to fold by demonstrating strength, then good. If you get shoved over by QQ, you are getting all the correct odds - and then some - to call off your stack on this street. You're a little worse than 50% to win here, and assuming betting went something standard like 3 BB > 12 BB > 35-40 BB, you're getting pot odds to call.
Factor in fold equity, perhaps catching a tilting opponent with KQ (one of my greater live game triumphs), and all the other variables, I would say "it depends."
Regardless we are four-betting or else we're folding on a flop - if you believe your opponent has you beat, no flop you can catch is going to improve you, save TJQ - and we all know how often we flop broadway when we think we're behind with AK. And of course . . . what do we do when the board pairs?
Get the money in pre - when you have pot odds, and hope he folds - you're not made. But if he shoves over, you have to call and hope you're best after the river.
If you can convince your opponent to fold by demonstrating strength, then good. If you get shoved over by QQ, you are getting all the correct odds - and then some - to call off your stack on this street. You're a little worse than 50% to win here, and assuming betting went something standard like 3 BB > 12 BB > 35-40 BB, you're getting pot odds to call.
Factor in fold equity, perhaps catching a tilting opponent with KQ (one of my greater live game triumphs), and all the other variables, I would say "it depends."
Regardless we are four-betting or else we're folding on a flop - if you believe your opponent has you beat, no flop you can catch is going to improve you, save TJQ - and we all know how often we flop broadway when we think we're behind with AK. And of course . . . what do we do when the board pairs?
Get the money in pre - when you have pot odds, and hope he folds - you're not made. But if he shoves over, you have to call and hope you're best after the river.