Folding KK preflop to 4bet! FR cash

[acky100]

OK OK, vs FR nits I can see myself perhaps folding to a cold 5bet shove or something... maybe!

On an vaguely related note, have you read this before? http://tommyangelo.com/articles/the-worst-play-ever/

How about you and me starting a thread with just one hand posted in the spirit of the above post by Mr Angelo?

Haha! i love it cafeman! Oh man im so tempted to take you up on this offer but i dont know if i could do it!! Now i really wanna prove to myself that i could do it, ahh why did you post this!

 

[dmorris68]

Never say never about anything. Several of us have outlined very specific and typically rare cases where folding KK preflop is the correct play, however it's also easy to get caught up in "what if's" and start looking for reasons to fold that aren't valid.

The idea is that you learn enough about your opponents tendencies and ranges, combined with stack sizes, tourney type/structure/payouts (if applicable), and any other information you can use to make the best possible decision every time. 98.2% of the time*, that decision will likely be to ship it preflop with KK. But it's still foolish to reject out of hand that 1.8% of the time when it's right to fold.

* 98.2% was totally pulled out of my arse, but you get the point...

 

[fletchdad]

.
* 98.2% was totally pulled out of my arse, but you get the point...

IDK, 98.2 sounds about right to me, maybe a but too low, but not bad.....

 

[darkassassin89]

maybe the only time to fold KK is on the bubble of a 200$ buy in tourny when the big stack is shoving all in every hand and you still have 30-50BB ( he has around 80-100) Then MAYBE i advocate folding KK pre flop. But this is the only spot i can think of that folding KK is worth doing. I mean you are most likely crushing his all in range since thats all he is doing to steal blinds and pop the bubble. but he could have an ace rag, and can hit. lol so this scenario i MAY fold KK

 

[dmorris68]

^^^ What does the buy-in have to do with it?

 

[darkassassin89]

I dono, maybe because you dont want to risk it?

 

[darkassassin89]

bubbled with KK vs an ace rag xD great day.

 

[TylerN]

I dono, maybe because you dont want to risk it?

then your playing too high for your bankroll

 

[WVHillbilly]

OK OK, vs FR nits I can see myself perhaps folding to a cold 5bet shove or something... maybe!

On an vaguely related note, have you read this before? http://tommyangelo.com/articles/the-worst-play-ever/

How about you and me starting a thread with just one hand posted in the spirit of the above post by Mr Angelo?

Haha! i love it cafeman! Oh man im so tempted to take you up on this offer but i dont know if i could do it!! Now i really wanna prove to myself that i could do it, ahh why did you post this!

Easy as pie.

Full Tilt - $0.50 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: $60.95
MP: $77.25
MP+1: $54.95
CO: $27.05
BTN: $104.45
SB: $57.85
Hero (BB): $64.45
UTG: $100.75

SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

Pre Flop: ($0.75) Hero has A:diamond: A:club:

fold, fold, fold, fold, CO raises to $2.00, fold, fold, fold

CO wins $1.25

 

[darkassassin89]

^ oh you know SOMEONE folded KK in that hand FOR SURE!!!

 

[darkassassin89]

then your playing too high for your bankroll

well i ment you do not want to risk bubling is all and a bigger tourney tends to have more worth while cashes, even min cashes

 

[acky100]

Haha WV, if that is your HH, then was that a misclick/timeout? I got AA yesterday and thought of it but just couldnt bring myself to do it!

 

[Cafeman]

nh WV!

I was sooooo close to folding here yesterday (seriously!). Fold > Raise > Shove > Call

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed)

CO ($50)
Button ($59.69)
SB ($20)
BB ($57.45)
UTG ($15.29)
Hero (MP) ($53.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, A

UTG calls $0.50, Hero bets $2.25, 1 fold, Button calls $2.25, 1 fold, BB raises $7, 1 fold,

Spoiler

Hero raises $51.10 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls $45.85

Flop: ($109.70) 9

, 8

, 2

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($109.70) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($109.70) K

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $109.70

Results:
BB had K

, A

(one pair, Kings).
Hero had A

, A

(one pair, Aces).
Outcome: Hero won $106.70

I think the massive amount of time I spent thinking over my fold (hence the shove!) might have just tipped villain into calling

 

[WVHillbilly]

Haha WV, if that is your HH, then was that a misclick/timeout? I got AA yesterday and thought of it but just couldnt bring myself to do it!

Nope. That one was intentional after reading the part cafeman31 referenced in Elements of Poker. I wanted to do it out of the blinds because everyone knows you win less / lose more playing OOP. Figured if I'm going to fold AA preflop might as well do it when I was in bad position. In looking for it in my db yesterday I found that I have folded AA preflop 16 times. 15 by misclick/timeouts and 1 just because.

 

[vanquish]

U should probably work on ur clicking abilities

 

[JusSumguy]

U should probably work on ur clicking abilities

-

 

[fletchdad]

I thought about it, but played my AA. I am not strong enough to fold it.

(I also looked and out of the last 125 AA I had, I lost money on 10, and made money on the rest so dont know if I will ever be strong enough to fold it..... There are also a LOT of mountains that are "there" that I wont climb.)

 

[WVHillbilly]

U should probably work on ur clicking abilities

Probably but it works out to something like .5% of the times I've had AA that I've mistakenly folded them. Product of playing too many tables no doubt.

 

[twoturntablez]

The thing is dont visualise the ace, visualise the Ace and youre beat.
Sure, there are 24 aces in the deck when you hold KK.
Visualise the win and you'll be sweet, unless you play on Party.

 

[acky100]

Wow WV, you spewy bastard 15 misclicks with AA!!! Never taking advice from you ever again ha ha.

Oh and folding AA in the blinds is a cop out, i bet the blinds were like 4/4 nits too, not cool man! Real men fold AA UTG...

Well atleast you've managed to fold them at all i suppose im still whipped by the cards.

 

[blankoblanco]

there are definitely times when folding KK preflop is the right play, especially in full ring

this is true

however, if you haven't reached the point where you recognize with some degree of confidence which these times are, you're probably fine just not folding them cause youre gonna be prone to making too many mistakes otherwise

but the times to fold them tend to involve really predictable nits at 50NL+ FR with one of you being in EP or possibly MP. especially if you have a tight image yourself

 

[Cafeman]

Oh and folding AA in the blinds is a cop out, i bet the blinds were like 4/4 nits too, not cool man! Real men fold AA UTG...

Real men fold AA with at least a raise in front. I'm still not a real man!

 

[acky100]

this is true

however, if you haven't reached the point where you recognize with some degree of confidence which these times are, you're probably fine just not folding them cause youre gonna be prone to making too many mistakes otherwise

but the times to fold them tend to involve really predictable nits at 50NL+ FR with one of you being in EP or possibly MP. especially if you have a tight image yourself

Great example, it's probably a tiny tiny tiny part of the game and i cant imagine it having much effect on a persons WR so it definitely wont seperate a losing player to a breakeven or winning player but its still just thinking about ranges and if there are times i can save a buyin by knowing that villains range has me beat, im happy to take it even if it is 1 in 50k+ or so hands.

 

[acky100]

Real men fold AA with at least a raise in front. I'm still not a real man!

Haha, you're not a real man because you toy with the idea of folding then spaz shove

Maybe i should shove AA before i learn to fold it?

 

[Cafeman]

Maybe i should shove AA before i learn to fold it?

Exactly. I'm just further along the path to enlightenment than you are young padawan

Next stop, FOLDING!