***February Cash Game Thread***

[burntrider]

once you hit say 25nl or 50nl you'll start running into better players who will exploit open limpers.

So true...sigh

fwiw, I don't consider TT and JJ marginal utg in FR - I generally use AK, AQs, 88+ as my range in FR utg (and I'm a nit, esp in FR).

Yes I have changed my game to somewhat mirror this - AQ is starting to become my least liked hand, not always a bad thing. Sometimes a PP of 3's or 6's may get the gut telling me to limp, but other than that my style has def changed for the better lately.

 

[WVHillbilly]

DON'T OPEN LIMP!!!
DON'T OPEN LIMP!!!
DON'T OPEN LIMP!!!
DON'T OPEN LIMP!!!
DON'T OPEN LIMP!!!

Try to never get yourself into an "I do this with this hand from this position" type of mindset. Base your play around the table dynamics (what have you been doing lately, have you only shown winners, is their a 90/10 in the blinds, etc.).

I mean I personally fold 22-66 from EP...unless I know the guys in the blinds are terribad then I'll open them for a 4x raise and generally play HU with position on the horrible player. Same with AJ, I'll fold it generally but I'm more than willing to change that when the table conditions are right.

As for open raise size I agree that 4x all around is best at micros with a tighter opening range. I think it's even probably optimal from the BTN to play a little tighter (maybe 40% of hands when it's folded to you) and make your raises 4x. Lots of $$ to be made cbetting pretty much every flop in position at these levels.

 

[dsvw56]

Wow, lot's of good discussion while I was sleeping.

Agree 100% with WVH, in fact I wrote a series of articles last year about this. For anyone that hasn't seen them, they can be found here :

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/exploiting-your-opponents-part-1-why-147871/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/exploiting-your-opponents-part-2-nits-148007/
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/exploiting-your-opponents-part-3-loosepassive-148760/

Your goal in poker should be to always make the best decision possible. Since a poker table is a dynamic environment, always changing, the best decision can't always be the same. You need to use the current table dynamics in order to decide what the current best decision is.

 

[KerouacsDog]

CBet!!!

It's just so profitable at the super micros' I used to cbet like 90%ish when I played them people just look to see flops and fold if they miss!

Also what do you mo fo's think about opening raise sizes at the micro's?
I personally feel 4x is the optimal open and then +1 for a limper.

my 2 bits worth:
2nl 5x +1 for each limper
5nl/10nl 4x +1 for each limper
25nl 3x +1 for each limper.

 

[thepokerkid123]

With all of the pre-flop raise sizes and 3bet sizing, mine change a lot.

UTG=5bb, MP/CO=4bb+1, Button if there's one or more players before me 3bb+1 per limper, if it's folded to me, 2bb.
If you've got anything less than agro maniacs on your left then your button range is going to be way wider than the blinds. Mine is only at 40% but I'm definately -EV post flop button vs blinds (for example I might have K3s and they might have KT), I think I need to work on my cbet sizing compared to their fold to cbet % because I've probably been losing money with my air on that one against a lot of opponents... but that's really a different subject, anyway the point is a button range is really weak so I exploit them pre-flop, which is why I use 2bb. Edit: I exploit them pre-flop with my entire range. I am obviously hugely +EV with the top of my range post-flop, but that's the smaller part of my range.
UTG basically uses the same approach as my 3bets. Build a pot so I can get stacks in early and because people in the tiny stakes I've been playing seem to view bets as an absolute value, not a percentage of the pot, if my cbet is bigger (but still only about 3/4 pot OOP) they'll fold more.
MP/CO is just middle ground, occasionally depending on the table CO may play like the button so those sizes are a little variable.


3bet sizing I definately go for 3x IP and 4x OOP, my entire OOP game is designed to punish pre-flop mistakes and to build a pot that I can comfortably play for stacks in with a 1 pair hand, or be as scary as possible with my barrelling SCer.
With that being said, I really don't 3bet from position much at all (a leak?) and I really only have a value range, obviously if against a thinking opponent I'd cash in this credibility with a lot of bluffs but against typical fish my thought process doesn't really involve "should I 3bet?", I mean, if they're a real fish 70/3, I'll 3bet 88+ AT+ for value but if they're just 30/10 I don't want to 3bet stuff that I can play proffitably post-flop and that I actually want action with (this has lead many times to me calling with a hand like AK and folding on the flop/turn).

I'm completely open to criticism on any of this if anyone sees any faults (and you should).

 

[Jurn8]

well your 3bet range should be polarized vs fish to basically only value hands, but the value range is wider so JJ, AQs and 10s for example would be include and you never bluff. However vs a regular or a standard TAG it become unpolarized so our 58s or 89s is a 3bet bluff and our AA/KK becomes our value range its like a scale where the hands shift from value to bluff depending on player tendencies.

I could have got the polarized/unpolarized the wrong way around but the explanations aren't.

 

[marknz88]

What's your flop cbet % and your turn cbet %? Also, filter for 3bet pots - what's your flop cbet% in 3bet pots?

My non-3b pots Cbet flop = 43% and my Cbet Turn = 53%

3b pots, Cbet Flop = 67% and Cbet Turn = 64%

So much good discussion to read when I get back from uni.

Thanks all for the replies.

 

[No Brainer]

My non-3b pots Cbet flop = 43% and my Cbet Turn = 53%

3b pots, Cbet Flop = 67% and Cbet Turn = 64%

So much good discussion to read when I get back from uni.

Thanks all for the replies.

All of these seem extremely low to me. Do you only c-bet when you hit the flop? If so as stated earlier this is very easy to see through and people will be taking notes on you about this kind of thing.

Also at these levels there are so many people that think their Q9s is the greatest hand and they are very willing to call a preflop raise but when they miss the flop they will fold to a bet as they think you must have hit it.

This is also where your position is vital,
If you have missed the flop and it is checked to you you can throw a bet out and a lot of the time take those 10bb that are sitting on the table.
If you have missed the flop and someone makes a pot sized bet before you, you have an easy fold.

 

[slycbnew]

All of these seem extremely low to me. Do you only c-bet when you hit the flop? If so as stated earlier this is very easy to see through and people will be taking notes on you about this kind of thing.

Also at these levels there are so many people that think their Q9s is the greatest hand and they are very willing to call a preflop raise but when they miss the flop they will fold to a bet as they think you must have hit it.

This is also where your position is vital,
If you have missed the flop and it is checked to you you can throw a bet out and a lot of the time take those 10bb that are sitting on the table.
If you have missed the flop and someone makes a pot sized bet before you, you have an easy fold.

+1

This is really good news - you're going to see a pretty immediate improvement in your winrate simply by cbetting more often.

I do suggest, though, that you check out that video on cbetting before you start cbetting flop and turn 100% - we don't want you to turn into a spew monkey.

 

[marknz88]

All of these seem extremely low to me. Do you only c-bet when you hit the flop? If so as stated earlier this is very easy to see through and people will be taking notes on you about this kind of thing.

Also at these levels there are so many people that think their Q9s is the greatest hand and they are very willing to call a preflop raise but when they miss the flop they will fold to a bet as they think you must have hit it.

This is also where your position is vital,
If you have missed the flop and it is checked to you you can throw a bet out and a lot of the time take those 10bb that are sitting on the table.
If you have missed the flop and someone makes a pot sized bet before you, you have an easy fold.

I cbet most flops I hit or where I have over cards generally. If miss by a mile then sometimes I will cbet if I was the pfr, but quiet often if im IP i'll get donked into and call and or raise em (which usually results in my getting stacked with my TP or 2Pair)

+1

This is really good news - you're going to see a pretty immediate improvement in your winrate simply by cbetting more often.

I do suggest, though, that you check out that video on cbetting before you start cbetting flop and turn 100% - we don't want you to turn into a spew monkey.

Thanks, yup I just finished watching the video (boy are videos much better value that reading static text a lot of the time). I now think I understand when I should be cbetting and when I shouldn't. Going to take me a while to get the hang of it, in each of the many situations that arise post flop.

So my goals for the rest of Feb are to practice my Cbetting and reading board textures.

Next month I'll take up 3Betting as I think thats somewhere else I'm weak at the moment.

I think my problems up till now was just being so overwhelmed with all the information and things I need to try and think about that I just get confused and into marginal situations/sub-optimal plays.

FPaulson (I think it was) had a good post on focussing on one area at a time while learning/improving your game, and for me this is something that should help greatly rather than multi-tasking multiple concepts.

 

[Jurn8]

hey dudes good job on helping another micro mo fo out!!

this is what its allllllllllll about players!!

Next

some unknown donks..

Q72r

whats your play?

 

[tenbob]

my 2 bits worth:
2nl 5x +1 for each limper
5nl/10nl 4x +1 for each limper
25nl 3x +1 for each limper.

I raise x4+1 per limper at nl$50. More usually if im raising a big hand out of the blinds.

Edit : I rekon I'm going to start posting in this thread a decent bit. I've made a decision not to move to back to nl$100 until I have 100 buyins.

 

[WVHillbilly]

hey dudes good job on helping another micro mo fo out!!

this is what its allllllllllll about players!!

Next

some unknown donks..

Q72r

whats your play?

What are we holding?

 

[Jurn8]

A10o

 

[cAPSLOCK]

With the info so far easy fold.

Why are we in the hand against an unknown with ATo did we get a walk?

What position are we?

 

[WVHillbilly]

So we're BTN with ATo we raise and the BB calls.

Flop is Q72 and he donks. What do we do?

With ATo, I raise. Donk bets in general are weak, so we show strength and take the pot.

If we have AQ in the same spot I call the flop bet and hope he bets again on the turn.

 

[Jurn8]

why is this an easy fold caps?

What do you expect him to do this with?

 

[dsvw56]

I raise 100% of the time there.

 

[Jurn8]

I raise 100% of the time there.

reasoning?

 

[dsvw56]

reasoning?

Donk bets are usually weak. Therefore you assume all donk bets are weak until proven otherwise. A raise will win the pot a large % of the time. We have little SD value and little chance of improving our hand so winning the pot now is our best option even though we may be turning the best hand in to a bluff.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

why is this an easy fold caps?

What do you expect him to do this with?

Uh oh... seems I am the only one picking this answer. Perhaps I am who the lesson is for.

I am folding because I think against an unknown I am behind often enough to err on the side of caution, and raising donk bets against unknowns is fancy play at my stakes.

If I KNOW the player to be pretty terrible it is an easy raise for me here too. But I don't like throwing money at the pot with A high against an unknown.

But I suppose my position implies I have opened the pot pre flop and been called.

I would rather have watched this player for long enough to form a rough idea of his style before blindly engaging him.

Can you tell me his screen name and if his avatar is a skull, has blood, or a rap artist?

 

[Jurn8]

tis a made up hand and his avatar is of ummmm his child

 

[tenbob]

Donk bets are usually weak. Therefore you assume all donk bets are weak until proven otherwise. A raise will win the pot a large % of the time. We have little SD value and little chance of improving our hand so winning the pot now is our best option even though we may be turning the best hand in to a bluff.

It depends on the villian, but raising donk bets is generally profitable. Against a super-fish "i has pair i bet", its generally a mistake, and should be avoided.

On the opposide side, if you spot a reg raising donk bets like crazy, donking into him with the top of your range can be much better than c/r.

 

[dsvw56]

I didn't mean I raise 100% of the time when someone donks, I meant I do it 100% of the time in this situation, facing a donk from an unknown in the micros.

 

[thepokerkid123]

If his donk bet is 2/3 pot or greater and I have no history with the player to indicate that he's crazy aggressive post-flop, I fold.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really haven't seen decent sized donk bets turning out to be weak hands very often. The min donk bet is a different matter, and I'll raise it nearly 100% of the time but they have to be very bluffy before I want to mess with them after they make a decent sized donk bet.