AA again Try this.

Dennis C

Dennis C

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My buddie Crock65 asked me a few days ago if I would fold pocket aces being the low stack and folowing 2 re-raises. I told him hell no. Then he asked one that brought up an interesting point. Put this in your pipe and tell me what it tastes like:
You have pocket aces pre-flop, your on the button. 1st position raises the blind x2, 4th pos. raises 2x that. Next player goes all-in. You are the small stack, you know you have the best starting hand, then you relize you are on the bubble and if you go out this hand you get shit. Do you call or do you fold and make the money? To fold pocket aces is a sin acording to (The Poker Bible), but we've all seen AA go down hard and win like the champs that they are. What would you do?:confused:
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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Call because it is the best pre-flop hand and #2 say you do make the bubble for what? Your buy-in plus a few extra pennies.. is winning those few extra pennies going to change your life? So why worry if you don't win pennies when you can aim for the real money which is the final table and the top 1-3 are the places that give you way more money/
 
C

Crock65

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Folding AA

Buy in fees for all the tournaments I get in can add up pretty quickly. It is a long shot to win. Although I play to win one of my first priorities is to make the money. When it comes down to the bubble and getting out, I let someone else be the fall guy. The return of my entry fee plus the extra few "cents" allows me to play in the next tourney. It is not that often that you are in that position, but why waste your entry fee on a coin flip? I sit and wait for those people that are willing to try to go for the "win" and get busted. They go out, I make the money. I depend on those people. Also, in some tourneys that bubble spot may make the difference of winning an entry to another tourney. If you won a satelite entry to the wsop on a small entry fee, would your thoughts then change? Now we are talking about a few thousand dollars. Maybe that is just pocket change for some people, but that is a day in Vegas for me.
 
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xdmanx007

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You HAVE to call Twizzy made a comment no less than ingenius! The object of tournies is to WIN short stacked you must simply take your BEST shot and they don't get any better!

If you bubble out so be it. Bubbling out is a risk worth taking if it means you will have a good chance to finish very high in the tournament. IMHO When the goal is to WIN; if it isn't it should be, you can increase your risk factor in the latter stages of a tourney, because when you balance risk versus reward; the reward in winning a MTT justifies a slight increase in what you should be willing to risk.
 
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Freakakanus

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CALL, if you fold and an Ace come up on the flop you will be kicking yourself from now until eternity. I undrstand the "making your entry fee" back but you should play to WIN first and foremost. MAYBE fold KK since someone could have the Aces but if you have them and don't use them in a situation where you could possibly double or triple up then I'm sorry but you're a fool. If you bust out, well at least you know you had the best hand when you started and there was nothing else you could do. This is my opinion obviously and people may disagree but you wouldn't be doing yourself or your game any justice trying to "limp" into the money instead of going for the win.
 
Dennis C

Dennis C

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But what about Crock's comment if it's a sattilite and the difernce is thousands do you still fell the same? If you do you need to re-evaluate your game.
 
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xdmanx007

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:eek: :eek: :eek: umm I stand by my post, this is not an aspect of my game I feel needs reevaluated. The only circumstance I see justifing "playing to make the money not win" is if the tournament was a satellite or qualifier where several finishing positions have the same prize.

Finishing at the bottom of the money list will generally only net you a very small profit in relation to your buyin. If you are comfortable playing not to lose it's your money and of course you are not playing badly. I just believe the BEST way to play, is to play for the win, or more precisely the opportunity to win outweighs the risk in bubbling out.
 
tenbob

tenbob

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Pennies, thousands does it matter ? If you fold AA pre-flop in any game, for any reason then your playing the wrong game, or your playing at too high limits.

If you dont have to balls to play AA simple. Take up bingo.
 
robwhufc

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We've done AA time and time again (but not for a while!). If, by folding AA you are guaranteed to hit one of the qualifying slots for an MTT, and there's no extra incentive to win satellite, then fold. Otherwise you always play AA - you will have the best starting hand and the correct odds to call in EVERY situation. As posters have said before, if you're too worried about losing to call a bet when you've got AA, then you need to find another game to play.
 
bigjace

bigjace

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Fold AA and wait for what?This is as good a hand as you can get so you got to play it.Qs,Ks are fair enough but not AA.One thing you can 99.9% be certain of is that you're ahead pre flop which is good enough for me(you could of course be up against another AA,hence 99.9%)
 
Dennis C

Dennis C

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Nice views, maybye I'll look at my game again. I understand that it could be a folder if 27 ppl move to equal prizes and thers 28 left. Anything out side of that I guess you should play to win. If you can't aford to part with your buy-in then you should not be involved.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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If you won a satelite entry to the WSOP on a small entry fee, would your thoughts then change?

Thats just it you won it..Not like there will be any more ever coming up. You haven't even lost your entry fee because you won the entry fee. My other favorite saying "No guts no glory".
 
Jocksrock

Jocksrock

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AA...its make or break for me...i would(and regulary do) follow it to the death during a pre flop bet....The depression caused by someone else winning the hand with a 7 2 off suit disappears as soon as the AA show up on my hand again...The wheels go round and round and we can only but spin with them..
 
C

Crock65

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Even if A A comes on the flop, and i folded the A A sure I think wow I could have doubled or tripled up. However, I take comfort in the satisfaction that someone else bubbled out instead of me. When I am messing with fire that could turn explosive at a critical point in time, I back down. Too many others would not. They will go ahead and go all in and then they are all out. It does make a difference on the amount of people in the tourney, my bankroll, when does the blinds come to me again and such. Another consideration is if I get tourney leader board pts and the like. I may be chicken, but I happily sing "I'm In Da Money" once the bubble person is out.
 
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C

Crock65

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twizzybop said:
If you won a satelite entry to the WSOP on a small entry fee, would your thoughts then change?

Thats just it you won it..Not like there will be any more ever coming up. You haven't even lost your entry fee because you won the entry fee. My other favorite saying "No guts no glory".

You lose the satelite entry fee, which may be small. But what you do lose is the $10,000 you could have won had you swallowed some pride and played safe. Sure poker is a gamble and many times you take risks. I am willing to take risks just not at the critical junction time.
 
gjshand

gjshand

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My answers simple i'm afraid, yes you should fold Pocket A's when you THINK YOUR BEAT, pre flop your not, differant story if you find an all in on a flop of say 887 or even AKK.

The only time i could see an exeption is at a final table, say 4 players left and you last to act, the 3 others are all in and you feel the chip leader is strong. Maybe then and only maybe should you fold to move up the money ( if the extra 2 places are a big jump in prize money).

Just my opinion though.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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Ok today for instance.. Entered a $1.00 MTT.. Top 18 get paid.. Early in the tourney I get about 6000 in chips. Very nice start before 1st break. I then have to sit out for circumstances behond my control and leave the house. I think if I get back in time I can finish. I do get back but something like over an hour later to an hour 1/2 later. I have about 2400 in chips about now, with 20 people left in the tourney. Now one gets knocked out and that makes it 19.. Ok 16th pays for the $1.00 plus .66 cents.. whoo hoo!

Anyway I now have 2k in chips cause of the blinds hitting me. I have pocket 5's.. I bet all-in and got 1 caller.. he has pocket 7's. Results I doubled up.. hit trips, he busts out. I finished 5th place in that tourney all because I didn't put a dollar in to place 18th. I think of it as playing powerball.. I play 1.00 to win the poweball not to win a free ticket. Little extreme I know but the results are the same.

As for the sattelite entry fee being lost.. I didn't lose something I won.. However I have played a $2.20 sit & go for an entry before. Won that to realize what a donk I was because the satellite tourney was at 1 am in the morning. Being that I had to be up at 5:30 am for work. I went to bed early once I realized this and played that tourney. I didn't do well because I allready told this story.. 5 loose cannons(maniacs at my table), I played as supertight as I could, had my QQ's cracked by 2,4 suited.

Like Tiger Woods would say "2nd sucks"
 
K

KidHavok

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i say take the for sure money, then gamble and hope you get to double up later (when you are guaranteed to win some $$$). So, I would fold.
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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Hey guys,

If you have a look at Pokerlistings.com they have a strategy question about AA pre-flop. The analysis of why to call or fold is very interesting and is taken from Harrington on Hold'em. This is a great way to view the decision of what to do and why.
 
Dennis C

Dennis C

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Schatzdog said:
Hey guys,

If you have a look at Pokerlistings.com they have a strategy question about AA pre-flop. The analysis of why to call or fold is very interesting and is taken from Harrington on Hold'em. This is a great way to view the decision of what to do and why.
But does that answer this particular question? Did you read the full thread?
 
osirisdean

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in the situation where i was *guaranteed* to make the money if i fold AA preflop, i might consider it. for something like an online tournament? heck no, ill play aces preflop every time. like it's been said, it's not worth it to simply make the money; to win money, you have to play for first place every time.

now if i had gotten into the WSOP (either thru satellite, gift, or straight up buy-in) and i was absolutely guaranteed to make the money if i fold AA preflop, then i would probably fold. why? because honestly, i would be much happier winning whatever amount on top the buy-in with stakes that high; furthermore, i figure my chances of making *more* money (even though i consider myself a very solid player) somewhat slim. i would assume that in the WSOP, after the bubble breaks, you still have to wade through another hundred people or so to get a bump up in the payback, which to me isnt offering me decent enough odds to throw away a guaranteed profit (again, at those stakes).

now, to change scenarios again, if i were used to playing high stakes and had the talent (and bankroll) of ivey or gordon or whomever, then of course i wouldnt be concerned about the bubble, id be concerned about getting to the final table. and in that case, AA = all in. ;)
 
roundcat

roundcat

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I'd certainly play the aces. In that scenario, what if you fold and the person who went all-in doesn't get any callers despite two people having raised the pot? Then he's still in it and you're still short-stacked and waiting for a good opportunity to get all your chips in the pot, and you just missed a nice chance to double up. Even if he does get a caller, if whoever loses the hand has the other person covered, they're both still in it and you're still short-stacked on the bubble.
 
osirisdean

osirisdean

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chinchilla said:
I'd certainly play the aces. In that scenario, what if you fold and the person who went all-in doesn't get any callers despite two people having raised the pot? Then he's still in it and you're still short-stacked and waiting for a good opportunity to get all your chips in the pot, and you just missed a nice chance to double up. Even if he does get a caller, if whoever loses the hand has the other person covered, they're both still in it and you're still short-stacked on the bubble.

youre extrapolating the situation needlessly. assume that two people go all-in with exactly the same chipstack, and another person with a few more chips calls. yes yes, i know, the short stacks could have identical hands and split the pot, but whatever, this is a strictly hypothetical situation in the first place. dont read so much into it. the premise is this: fold, and youre guaranteed money; play and you could go out or double up.
 
woodsy44

woodsy44

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It may compliment his style, but I think that Crock65 is a fool to fold them.
When you are short stack, you ARE WANTING to hit a monster hand and have a few callers to add to the pot.
 
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