Can a weak tournament player make a good cash game player?

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NoWuckingFurries

NoWuckingFurries

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I'll probably be finding out the answer quite soon anyway, because part of the Full Tilt Poker Academy "Chris Ferguson Pre-Flop Play" challenge involves stealing the blinds five times from middle or late position in no-limit Hold'em cash games.
Actually FT have just confirmed that you can't complete any of this CF challenge with tournaments, it has to all be done using cash games, and I'm not prepared to move to cash games yet.

So I've changed to the Jon Turner M Zones challenge for the time being.
 
Weregoat

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Tournaments and cash games are quite different, true. But I don't think anybody discussed something I think is important -

I'll do so with an example hand, and we'll use variables for BBs.

Let's say we're in the BB, and it's checked around to us, in a four-way pot. We have suited connectors, but not big enough for us to raise out of position, we'll go with 8s7s. We decide to check. Remaining players are SB, Hero (BB), MP, and BTN.

The flop hits us big, with 5s6dKs. We've flopped an open ended combo draw. Here are some of the differences in how we might play it.

We flopped a hand with a lot of equity, assuming nobody shares our hole cards, our straight outs, or is on a better flush draw, we have a whopping 15 outs to beat even a flopped monster, which gives us something like a 63% chance to improve to a straight or a flush, and a very small (almost negligible) percentage to improve to two pair or a flush to beat the likes of AK.

In a cash game, we have a few options how to play this, in a limped pot too much aggression isn't going to get paid off, unless somebody played Kx and hit two pair, slowplayed a monster (KK, AA), flopped two pair w/ 65, or a lesser draw, like 34 for instance. We can choose to play the pot slowly and hope to improve and get paid, or play it aggressive and hope somebody gives you some action and you improve, or play it aggressive and hope everybody folds around. From short-stack, you might check w/ the intent to check/raise jam, while you're still looking to your chips in there with a lot of outs. From a middle stack your play might be trickier, you will have a couple actions, and from deep stack you'll have all the options listed and a few more.

I recently had a flop like this in a cash game sitting around 400 BBs effective stacks in a 3-way pot. With a pot of around 20 BBs, I bet out about 15 BBs, villain A raised to 30 BBs, Villain B reraised to 60 BBs, I called, Villain A reraised to 120 BBs, Villain B called, and I jammed for the remainder of my 400 BB stack. Villain A folded, and villain B, after much contemplation, folded. They ran the cards to the turn and river and I was unimproved, but I took down 240 BBs on the flop with a monster combo draw. Also - both of my villains were terrible.

That's just one example of cash game play.

Now, assuming same pot-size, 20 BBs, and I'm at 50 BBs left, there is a lot more reason for me to open-jam that pot, then check/raise, because when my open-jam induces a fold from weak Ks, 2nd Pr, and gutshot draws w/ high card, and less than premium flush draws, I've increased my stack from 50 BBs to 70 BBs, a 40% increase. In the event that I get called, villain is getting bad odds, 50 BBs to win a pot of 70 BBs, and probably won't call me with less than a premium hand, a strong king, two pair, a set, or a bigger flush draw. Were I to open-check here, and there is a bet and a reraise, I have lost all fold equity, and if I decide to jam I can count on going to a showdown, as I can't give people bad enough pot odds to fold. Even if there's no raise, and it's just a 15 BB bet, when villain is getting 85:35, or about 2.45:1, he's much more likely to look me up, and people being calling after his action just sweeten the pot for him, and others in it.

Of course, in the event that you improve and end up having the strongest hand and taking down the pot at showdown, you'll be happy you got some action, putting your stack at 120 BBs instead of the 70 BBs before. However, provided you are short stack in the hand, your tournament life is at risk. If you are better than your opponents, there is a better time to make a move. If the bubble approaches, you can expect folds from less than big hands. And I don't know enough about ICM to make a strong point here other than, but a 70 BB stack isn't as likely to do as well as a 120 BB stack.

Another option when you get the 15 BB bet is to call. But if you don't improve on the turn, not only do you lose half your equity, but you lose a large amount of your fold equity as well (barring a scare card comes out for villain that fits into the story you've told through your actions, assuming your villain operates on that level of thinking and sees more than just his two hole cards and the board, but that's assuming a lot...)

So if I go busto in a cash game in a hand such as the above at a weak table, I've got more cash in my BR so I'm happy to buy back in, and continue forcing the villains to make bad decisions, and reaping the rewards of my efforts. In a tournament, I only get to go busto once, so I can either take a shot early, or wait until my chances are more solidified and get in with a better edge, because once you account for the 16-20 cards dealt as hole cards, provided a FR table (up to 10), you're looking at 3-6 spades, and maybe a couple of your straight outs, if not more, eaten up. I'd probably be looking for better places to make a play, especially if my table was full of weak (but lucky) players. In a cash game, I'd be stacking off against anybody I felt was made without a better flush draw, and being happy about it. (With the occaisonal passive play while I try to connect cheaply, depending on stack size and villain's tendancies.)

Of course, all these are for playing a pot out of position, and I already feel like I've wrote an essay, and the only tournament stack size I've looked at is 50 BBs. And only one type of hand, being an open ended combo draw...

But these are just some examples. As always, there are tons of factors. Villains, your cards, their cards, the gap in skill, the gap in luck, how you do in certain, what leaks you have, what leaks your opponents are able to exploit, etc.

To answer OP's original question, tournaments and cash games are two different beasts. Depending on whether you play live or on-line will make a difference (my live game is much better than my online game, in one I'm a consistant winner and the other a consistant loser), but that's not for me to discuss at the moment.

I've taken enough time writing this overly long and very specific answer to a general question.

Weregoat
 
NoWuckingFurries

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I've taken enough time writing this overly long and very specific answer to a general question.
Yes, I think it's fair to say that it definitely would be classed as a "quality post" ;)

Thanks! :)
 
BelgoSuisse

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my live game is much better than my online game, in one I'm a consistant winner and the other a consistant loser

Your game is probably just as good live or online. It's just that online games are so much tougher that the same game makes you a shark live and a fish online. That's super usual.
 
NoWuckingFurries

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Yes, that's part of the reason that the "online poker is rigged" conspiracy theory is so popular. People that can regularly crush live poker games come and play online and lose, and need to find an excuse - sorry, reason - for why they lose online when they do so well at live games.
 
Egon Towst

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So if I go busto in a cash game in a hand such as the above at a weak table, I've got more cash in my BR so I'm happy to buy back in, and continue forcing the villains to make bad decisions, and reaping the rewards of my efforts. In a tournament, I only get to go busto once, so I can either take a shot early, or wait until my chances are more solidified and get in with a better edge,

^^this is a key difference between the two forms, and well explained. In essence, a cash player will consider solely the pot odds when arriving at his decision, whereas the strategic situation in the tournament must also be factored in by the MTT player.
 
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NoWuckingFurries

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Pity you didn't rate it as five stars then :p
 
Stu_Ungar

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^^this is a key difference between the two forms, and well explained. In essence, a cash player will consider solely the pot odds when arriving at his decision, whereas the strategic situation in the tournament must also be factored in by the MTT player.

TBH a lot of tournament players over estimate the strategic play required to win.

At the start (for the 20 or so hands you are deep-stacked) you have zero % equity in the tournament. At the start you know exactly how many chips you need to win (its all of them) so you know you need to double up many times.

it's unusual to get the money in an be much more than a 70% favourite.

What happens when you multiply 0.7 by 0.7 a few times? you end up with a very small number. Thats the odds of you winning all of these doubleups!

Now the mid stages where you are close to the bubble or ITM, the ICM starts factoring in and you get these lovely debates about the merits of folding AA preflop.. which of course noone really does.

Then the end stages are where the blinds are so high that play is governed by M and things like the sage system.

It certainly requires skill but most of the tournament you are so far form the end that there is no strategy, you are just playing poker with mid sized stacks which isnt all that skillfull.. you are playing a game where you are pot committed by the turn.. there just aren't the implied odds or remaining stacks to get all that creative.

And by the end its a lottery you are forced to shove things like K7s (I get K7s.. I shove... oohh the skill!)

But yes the mid portion of the tournament dose indeed have quite a bit of strategy in it, but to get there you have to multiply 0.7 by 0.7 by 0.7 a few times
 
c9h13no3

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And by the end its a lottery you are forced to shove things like K7s (I get K7s.. I shove... oohh the skill!)
This is simplifying things a lot.

But honestly, this thread is dumb. I gave it one star, because all I see going down is some intellectual masterbation. Who cares if it takes more skill to be a good cash game player? Is that going to affect anyone's poker decisions? Maybe if you guys were talking about the transitions from one to the other, but all I see is silly "Oh, in tournaments you have to change gears, blah blah blah"... "Oh but in cash games, you have a really deep stack, blah blah blah".

I suppose this is one of those topics that gets people talking, but is completely & utterly retarded. Like say, will Brad & Angelina adopt another kid from Africa, or do you think Robert Pattinson & Kristen Stewart are actually dating?
 
NoWuckingFurries

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It has helped to clarify things in my mind. Not everybody is at the same stage of poker as you are, and it's important that this forum can help and support people at all levels of their development. I think it's easy to forget how confusing it is when you first start trying to become serious about poker, and people start to take a lot of things for granted.

Some people like to look at the wider picture, but presumably you don't - however, that still doesn't make it a pointless discussion. :)
 
Egon Towst

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I suppose this is one of those topics that gets people talking, but is completely & utterly retarded.


There are many threads on CC which I personally do not find useful or interesting. Therefore, I do not post in them. You are quite welcome to copy my idea. I hold no patent on it. :laugh:
 
c9h13no3

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There are many threads on CC which I personally do not find useful or interesting. Therefore, I do not post in them. You are quite welcome to copy my idea. I hold no patent on it. :laugh:
Is there a problem with trying to goad people into talking about something that is interesting?
 
DawgBones

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This is simplifying things a lot.

But honestly, this thread is dumb. I gave it one star, because all I see going down is some intellectual masterbation. Who cares if it takes more skill to be a good cash game player? Is that going to affect anyone's poker decisions? Maybe if you guys were talking about the transitions from one to the other, but all I see is silly "Oh, in tournaments you have to change gears, blah blah blah"... "Oh but in cash games, you have a really deep stack, blah blah blah".

I suppose this is one of those topics that gets people talking, but is completely & utterly retarded. Like say, will Brad & Angelina adopt another kid from Africa, or do you think Robert Pattinson & Kristen Stewart are actually dating?

There are many threads on CC which I personally do not find useful or interesting. Therefore, I do not post in them. You are quite welcome to copy my idea. I hold no patent on it. :laugh:

Just skimmed through and will be back to read it all later but you two gave me a lol. I'm picturing this discussion in person. Blah, blah, blah.:) Think it's a good topic NoWucking and will rate accordingly. Btw are Robert and Kristen dating and who the hell are they?:confused:
 
DawgBones

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TBH a lot of tournament players over estimate the strategic play required to win.

What exactly do you mean?

Then the end stages are where the blinds are so high that play is governed by M and things like the sage system.

Is this or is this not what tourney play is based upon?
It certainly requires skill but most of the tournament you are so far form the end that there is no strategy, you are just playing poker with mid sized stacks which isnt all that skillfull.. you are playing a game where you are pot committed by the turn.. there just aren't the implied odds or remaining stacks to get all that creative.

Think this is so wrong. If you have the nuts on the flop you have plenty of chances to be "creative"

And by the end its a lottery you are forced to shove things like K7s (I get K7s.. I shove... oohh the skill!)

As opposed to my AKs shove was busted and oh...I'll just re-load:confused:

Just saying
 
Stu_Ungar

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Neither the beginning or the end of the tournament have strategic decisions due to either stack size or being so far form the end of the tournament. The mid sections do, but to get to the mid sections ... (I think I wrote a post on this)

Memorising a chart =/= skill

It is very rare to ever hold the nuts.

There are a lot of players where shoving AK 100bb+ deep would be suicide.
 
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