Did I have odds to call here?

Effexor

Effexor

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pokerstars Game #5772040197: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2006/08/02 - 15:01:00 (ET)
Table 'Muschi' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: koloa ($1.44 in chips)
Seat 2: Effexor1 ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 3: Stuman22 ($3.86 in chips)
Seat 4: jul5209 ($1.87 in chips)
Seat 5: trainer_jyms ($4.96 in chips)
Seat 6: dadarapa ($2.65 in chips)
koloa: posts small blind $0.01
Effexor1: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Effexor1 [Jc 9c]
Stuman22: calls $0.02
jul5209: calls $0.02
trainer_jyms: folds
dadarapa: folds
koloa: calls $0.01
Effexor1: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts 8c 5s]
koloa: bets $0.02
Effexor1: raises $0.04 to $0.06
Stuman22: folds
jul5209: calls $0.06
koloa: calls $0.04
*** TURN *** [Ts 8c 5s] [4c]
koloa: bets $0.54
Effexor1: calls $0.54
jul5209: raises $1.25 to $1.79 and is all-in
koloa: calls $0.82 and is all-in
Effexor1: calls $1.25
*** RIVER *** [Ts 8c 5s 4c] [7s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Effexor1: shows [Jc 9c] (a straight, Seven to Jack)
jul5209: mucks hand
Effexor1 collected $0.81 from side pot
koloa: mucks hand
Effexor1 collected $4.14 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5.20 Main pot $4.14. Side pot $0.81. | Rake $0.25
Board [Ts 8c 5s 4c 7s]
Seat 1: koloa (small blind) mucked [6h 7d]
Seat 2: Effexor1 (big blind) showed [Jc 9c] and won ($4.95) with a straight, Seven to Jack
Seat 3: Stuman22 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: jul5209 mucked [6c Tc]
Seat 5: trainer_jyms folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: dadarapa (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I tried to do a quick calculation for pot odds and figured I was pretty close to have the correct odds to call, can one of you pros tell me if this was a good or bad call?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'll try:
15 outs (not counting jack which is probably not pure) for the flush and straight draw giving you 2.07:1 from the turn-->river
Pot's offering you 3.16:1, so yes you have odds. Even though you have to consider the possibility of one of your opponents has a straight (67) made, which takes away an out, you'll still have odds.

Though I have to argue with your .54 call (into a .26 pot) with people to act behind you. I probably call this HU hoping to milk him for the last of his stack, but with people to act behind you, you have to account for much more $$ going into the pot.
aswell as the flop raise...people are going to call you with a ten anyways, so why raise? Draw cheaply by cold-calling and hoping to see a cheap turn.
 
Lo-Dog

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Sorry not a pro but I will put in my 2c. The original call after the turn you had no odds to call. The bet was bigger than the pot so that much is obvious. After the re-raising you do have the odds to call the 1.25 bet as you are about 3-1 to hit one of your outs.

This next part I will take a crack at but someone who is better at it could jump in and tell me where I go wrong. 9 outs for the flush and 8 for the str8 is 17. 2 or you str8 cards are clubs so take those away and you have 15 cards that can help. 15x2 = 30 but really is more like a %32 chance to hit on the river.
 
ChuckTs

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I tried to do a quick calculation for pot odds and figured I was pretty close to have the correct odds to call, can one of you pros tell me if this was a good or bad call?


I keep a chart by my desk (i know...im a nerd:eek:) that shows your odds on the flop-turn, turn-river and flop-river with regards to how many outs you have.
Makes quick calculations much easier.

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/odds_chart.php
 
Stick66

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ChuckTs said:
I'll try:
15 outs (not counting jack which is probably not pure) for the flush and straight draw giving you 2.07:1 from the turn-->river
Pot's offering you 3.16:1, so yes you have odds. Even though you have to consider the possibility of one of your opponents has a straight (67) made, which takes away an out, you'll still have odds.
Correct.
ChuckTs said:
Though I have to argue with your .54 call (into a .26 pot) with people to act behind you.
It was actually a .80 pot since the first guy put .54 in.
ChuckTs said:
I probably call this HU hoping to milk him for the last of his stack, but with people to act behind you, you have to account for much more $$ going into the pot.
I agree with the call as it relates to implied odds. You know more money is coming and you still have 2-1 break even odds.

I actually would think about a raise or even push here. That's what "Jul..." did. He tried to scare away the draws. A push from you may have gotten one or more folds, thus increasing your odds of winning but limiting the future pot growth. A tough one.
ChuckTs said:
aswell as the flop raise...people are going to call you with a ten anyways, so why raise? Draw cheaply by cold-calling and hoping to see a cheap turn.
I agree with Chuck because a flop raise just sweetens the pot at these stakes unless you make a huge raise to try to win the 10 cent pot now. At these stakes, it's best to draw right along with everyone else. But at higher stakes, it's bad to give free cards like this. This is where I think micro-stakes create bad habits much like freerolls do. Oh well.
 
ChuckTs

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It was actually a .80 pot since the first guy put .54 in.

oops.

This makes the call a little more reasonable, but it's still a tough situation with people to act behind you who have shown interest the whole way through.
 
Effexor

Effexor

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ChuckTs said:
aswell as the flop raise...people are going to call you with a ten anyways, so why raise? Draw cheaply by cold-calling and hoping to see a cheap turn.

I had a good reason for my flop raise. Pure table read raise. I started with $2.00, was up to $3.40 and only one, maybe 2 hands went to a showdown. I was hitting some real good hands and people started giving my bets a lot of respect. The previous 3 or 4 hands I had won I made smallish flop bets and took the pot down with little to nothing in my hand.
 
Toadly

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I think you did the exaclty right thing here.............Odds figureing are just to damn much thinking. When I have more than 13 outs on the flop I am pot commited and will go all-in. Almost everytime.....................depending of course
 
twizzybop

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Toadly said:
I think you did the exaclty right thing here.............Odds figureing are just to damn much thinking. When I have more than 13 outs on the flop I am pot commited and will go all-in. Almost everytime.....................depending of course

If you don't figure odds then you won't last long in the game of hold-em.
Knowing odds and %'s is very crucial when playing hold-em.

Math skills are the most basic knowledge and it is day one reading.
 
Toadly

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Really.....what if ?
I can figure the odds with out exaclty figuering the numbers ?

What if a person can wing it with estimated guess work becasue said person is a wizz at dealing with mass amouts of information?

Or what if a person plays the other player more than he palys the cards ? Then where does the " Odds" fit into that ??

What if a person has been winning at no-limit poker for a long time or even 50 sessions in a row with out a complete loss of session start stack ??

HUM ???

These things happen every day to many many full time and part time players.


Na I disagree with you that odds are such a high percentage of the game to winning, what did you day? Cruical ?

Look in the beginign it may be important to know odds. BUt after awhile I think it is more important to "see" ALL the draws on the flop and to know what hands your fellow players are playing

If crunching numbers every hand works for you great.

Me I have to study the hands of other players more than I have time to crunch numbers.

And finnaly I think the most IMPORTANT thing in poker is this Learning to trust your instincts. Knowing when to play Q9 suited and bust two players by paying attention to your third eye. To know for sure the other guy has Nothing and you force him to fold with 4J on the button.

There are many more things that make a far greater difference than knowing what the exact odds are to a hand.

roulette has exact odds, blackjack has exact odds.

People do not.......what I can figure the odds on a AK on the button makes no difference when the guy in number 6 seat raise me all in with a 4-8 unsutied to bluff me out, get called only to catch a straight on the river.
 
10Ace

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Toadly if you don't want to crunch the numbers in your head there is a lot of free software that you can download and it will do the math for you or you can buy a chart that lists odds.
 
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