i got a lot of shit for this hand 4rm the table..

G

Googlez

Guest
27 person sit-n-go

1500 play chips
SB 10
BB 20

It was the first hand... so we all had 1500 chips.
Please note i usually hate doing anything besides folding on the first hand of any tourny, let alone doing what i did post-flop... but this was one of those.. special occasions...


I'm the BB.


1st to act folds
2nd raises to 140
3rd folds
4th calls
5th calls
6th folds
button calls
SB Calls
BB (Me) holding 4-5 spades -- calls.

flop comes out

Ks As 2s

sb checks
I bet 500.

everyone folds, except for some smuck who raises all-in.

i *shrug* then call.

he's holding big slick.



i got chit for calling pre-flop..

with 5 callers b4 me... i'de call with low-cards, INSPECIALLY suited connectors anyday... well worth seeing a flop with a pot like that.... inspecially when chances are they're holding a lot of those face cards that each other need...
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Well Googlez it is bad manners for somebody to blow you shit about how you play a hand at a poker table. Now I must blow you mad shit about this one. This is a hand where your brain will say OH HEY I won with these cards so I should play them in the future. 4,5 suited against a 7xBB raise is a FOLD situation eventhough there were that many peple in ,unless you are Gus Hansen. We are here to help though. 2 lessons that you need to learn the BB should be played as though the bet in front of you is in the pot so it is not an auto call with any hand simply because you are already invested. NOW you should TIGHTEN up your preflop calls to raises. When someone raises in front of you, you should tighten up to the point that there are 5 maybe 6 hands you should call or reraise with. TIGHTEN up when up against preflop raises. Just don't let yourself believe 4,5 suited or not is a playable hand against a raise. Too tired to analyze the flop play hopefully one of fellow mates will handle that 4 me!
 
rocka13

rocka13

Guest
(quote) everyone folds, except for some smuck who raises all-in.

Googlez, I'm sorry mate but I've got to say calling this raise with 45s is a bit shmuckier than all in with AK although the 3 spades on the flop has got to scare the hell out of a hand like that with 4 callers.

you got lucky and if you keep playing hands like this I'm afraid your going to lose a lot more than you win. Beleive me mate I do it all the time!! lol.

As for copping shit, feel free to add this to the pile.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Googlez said:
1st to act folds
2nd raises to 140
3rd folds
4th calls
5th calls
6th folds
button calls
SB Calls
BB (Me) holding 4-5 spades -- calls.
In a ring game I'd call here, in a tournament I wouldn't. The EV/Implied odds thread pretty much explains why.

The call on the flop is fine - if it's the preflop raiser pushing I call instantly, if it's any of the others I'll think for a second but end up calling anyway.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
While suited connectors do play well in a multi-way pot, the call here is one I wouldn't have made. Its costing you another 120t to call the bet into a 970t pot which is basically a little better than 8 to 1 pot odds. You're looking to flop the nut flush while avoiding scare cards or the board pairing. You have a lot of outs here to make a hand, but the chances of you having the best hand are far smaller than you're simply flopping a made hand. Also take into consideration that this is the first hand of play which also could mean added possibility of strength from one of the callers. There is also a chance that on a just less than perfect flop (which is what you got) that someone else at the table is holding the As and you'll lose a lot of tournament chips to find out. You've also got to take into consideration post-flop position when making a call like this from the blinds. Long story short, I pass on this hand, in this situation, and wait for a little different circumstances.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
Just a very loose call that you hit the best hand possible. You were gambling that you could hit low cards or the flush draw. I don't like the idea from the other guy of going all in when a flush is present.

You gambled and got away with it. Doyle would be proud since he loves baby suited connectors.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
I HATE players who says you shouldn't have called that raise or I shouldn't have played that hand. It's a defense mechanism for a sore loser. Usually I say, "Yeah, whatever. Loser!" or "Until you start paying my bets, SHUT UP!" Playing a low suited hand is not a bad play becuase you have achance for a straight or a flush. Meanwhile, other players are gunning for the high cards, whihc is exactly what happened. Good Call!
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
The problem with playing baby suited connectors comes when you do hit a straight instead of the flush you're usually left on the low end of it. You can't just arbitrarily call with low suited connecting cards they are a very situational hand and I think in this situation a call isn't the correct play. Just because a call you made pans out doesn't mean that it is the right thing to do and over time it will cost you more than it wins you.

And t1riel, a lot of the time opponents breating your play is sour grapes, however, you have to be open enough to accept criticism and be able to look at your play objectively. I'm sure there are instances where the comments from another player that piss you off could actually help you in the future.

I couldn't go back and edit my original post, so ill insert it here...I completely missed that the As flopped with the K. I thought when I skimmed the OP that he flopped the second nuts and the As was still unaccounted for, so obviously post-flop call of the all-in was correct. My bad. I still don't like the initial call, but its a difference in style more than anything.
 
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S

Superman

Guest
I think you made, maybe not the tightest/smartest play, but you won the hand didn't you...? I play mostly live, low limit games at a casino, and i hear this stuff all the time. people complaining about getting beat when there opponent was at a bid disavantage pre flop, but like i said you still won the pot. Now i will have to say i hate getting drawn out on but, hey its part or the game. I have a problem playin these low limit games (no fold'm hold'm) is what i call it, because thats what it is no likes to fold anything.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
Superman said:
I think you made, maybe not the tightest/smartest play, but you won the hand didn't you...?
Being results-oriented is bad.
 
I

internetstalker

Enthusiast
Googlez said:
27 person sit-n-go

1500 play chips
SB 10
BB 20

It was the first hand... so we all had 1500 chips.
Please note i usually hate doing anything besides folding on the first hand of any tourny, let alone doing what i did post-flop... but this was one of those.. special occasions...


I'm the BB.


1st to act folds
2nd raises to 140
3rd folds
4th calls
5th calls
6th folds
button calls
SB Calls
BB (Me) holding 4-5 spades -- calls.

flop comes out

Ks As 2s

sb checks
I bet 500.

everyone folds, except for some smuck who raises all-in.

i *shrug* then call.

he's holding big slick.



i got chit for calling pre-flop..

with 5 callers b4 me... i'de call with low-cards, INSPECIALLY suited connectors anyday... well worth seeing a flop with a pot like that.... inspecially when chances are they're holding a lot of those face cards that each other need...
thats a fine play!!
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
ummm no it isn't! Playing 4,5 suited is NOT a sound decision. Low flushes and idiot ends of straights will cost you WAY more than winning that one hand will ever compensate 4.
 
G

Googlez

Guest
well like i said...
with all those pre-flop callers, i'de throw away QQ in that position, but ide play suitted connectors..

the neg would probably even raise =].

so many callers i figured, each of them had tohave at least one face card.. if not two...

yeah, i didn't have the nut flush, and i personally think i was taking more of a risk post-flop than pre-flop....

ive very seldom gone into a pot in late position with suitted connectors with several people involved in the hand, and come out hurt.

Worst case, i dont hit on teh flop and i throw it away.

u gotta understand, playing loose doesn't mean going in with 4-5.
playing loose means going in with 4-5 and not knowing when to throw it away.

if the flop wasn't one that giving me more than 60% chance of winning... ide throw it away.

if i could throw KK away pre-flop, i can throw 4-5 away post flop.

also, keep this in mind....

27 person sit n go... so there isn't a whole battle field ahead of me.

for 120 more to call, i would be looking at a pot well over $950.

i ended up with 3560 chips after the hand, and was able to fully control my table from that point on.

a few more hands into it, and i was at least 3x ahead of anyone in the tourny the rest of the way.

when judging this hand, please take more consideration to the whole picture, and not just the hand.

calling for $120 more was more than just winning a pot, it was giving me the ability to take control over the other players with my stack.
how is that for pot odds? 27:1 pot odds =] you can't fold that !
 
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poettic1

poettic1

Guest
heres the just, super tight players can't understand the lore of low suited connectors witch is completely understandable, the theory behind the tight aggresive player like alan cologne or phil hellmuth is that you want a clear advantage over an opponent(70-30) and bet accordingly, i like this theory for tourny play, as it is a strategy that allows for maximum value of hands. and lets you make open game to the value of hands, letting your skill show through in stealing and value bets.low risk small reward(even money)


the other theory is the x-value or pot odds/implied odds. alot of people favor this theory because it allows for a wider array of hands to play. and has the bonus of the opposition not being able to put you on a hand. and most hands are very easy to fold. this is the strategy i prefer at cash games because the small connectors are good in these games(provided the amount of players in said hand justify a call) this is were it is correct to call as you might have even been the favorite to win, i don't know the other players hands but, it is likely you were, 8-1 is were you want to be with this type of hand preflop, 6-1 is actually exceptable but you know what i mean. i would however not stake my tourney on this type hand as it is very situational, but for that matter so is aceking. high risk high reward(6-1 or better for your money)

that said im not going to fault you for playing the hand your money, but my advise stay away from implied odds, and pot in tourneys as they are intended to prduce acurate numbers over virtually thousands of hands, and tourneys are a very limited couple of hondred good luck in the future.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Googlez said:
well like i said...
with all those pre-flop callers, i'de throw away QQ in that position, but ide play suitted connectors..

the neg would probably even raise =].

so many callers i figured, each of them had tohave at least one face card.. if not two...

yeah, i didn't have the nut flush, and i personally think i was taking more of a risk post-flop than pre-flop....

ive very seldom gone into a pot in late position with suitted connectors with several people involved in the hand, and come out hurt.

Worst case, i dont hit on teh flop and i throw it away.

u gotta understand, playing loose doesn't mean going in with 4-5.
playing loose means going in with 4-5 and not knowing when to throw it away.

if the flop wasn't one that giving me more than 60% chance of winning... ide throw it away.

if i could throw KK away pre-flop, i can throw 4-5 away post flop.

also, keep this in mind....

27 person sit n go... so there isn't a whole battle field ahead of me.

for 120 more to call, i would be looking at a pot well over $950.

i ended up with 3560 chips after the hand, and was able to fully control my table from that point on.

a few more hands into it, and i was at least 3x ahead of anyone in the tourny the rest of the way.

when judging this hand, please take more consideration to the whole picture, and not just the hand.

calling for $120 more was more than just winning a pot, it was giving me the ability to take control over the other players with my stack.
how is that for pot odds? 27:1 pot odds =] you can't fold that !
Tournament tips and deep thoughts by Googlez.....
 
G

Googlez

Guest
....

im not sure if you're mocking me and think my evaluation is incorrect....

or if you actully agree with something i said for once..


i dont think its the 2nd one though =]
 
G

Googlez

Guest
dorkus, 27:1 as in... 27 person sit n go.... i had chip advantage.....

not actual pot, pot odds.. but....

estimated gross income from future pot-odds =]
 
G

Googlez

Guest
the pot odds.... were more than just what was in the pot.

by risking 120, i would in re-turn get table control.

do you really think 120 is not worth that?
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Googlez you talk about table control. You simply must balance risk versus reward, in the hand you mention too much risk for the reward and WAY too early to be calling relatively large preflop bets! Before you can ever properly apply the math to poker you must first gain a general understanding of if wether or not the risk is worth it! In your case IMHO you played incorrectly but got lucky.
 
G

Googlez

Guest
do you guys know that these "under cards" and "tweeners" and all that other "crap hands" that are "dominated" by AA, KK, AK, QQ, etc. etc. are really not THAT FAR behind? You guys too heavily rely on "strong hands".

Antonio Esfandiari said it best, you're not as behind as you make yourself think you are. Play with no fear.
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

Guest
Dude, you're right when you say you aren't "that far" behind if you're saying it to mean you're more than a 1-3 outer. However, that doesn't make calling a bet with incorrect odds a good play. You're still going to lose a large majority of those hands and assuming they all cost the same to play you will be a loser in the long run. In other words the particular call you're talking about is -EV.
 
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