Is bottom straight good?

[MercilessKiller]

I still disagree, if the player is strong enough to lay it down if they don't hit big hand it is still profitable.

I think someone before said it would be "foolish" to fold.

Me and FuturisticHitman (yes a friend, but also a regular advanced poker player) both agree that folding is the correct option. I would also be tempted to post this on an ITH.com forum with many pro's that post to see their reaction tii.

It would appear people aren't "strong enough to lay it down". A straight isn't a big hand against higher straights and flushes.

I had no idea until storm said, that the player made the flush, but I did correctly make that read from the action. I hope that does show that I do actually know my stuff

I think the playing styles (as storma said) will change what to do in this hand pre flop, but post river i'd be folding, and pre flop i'm not loose aggressive (or loose passive) so I would be folding too.

 

[stormswa]

results

I think someone before said it would be "foolish" to fold.

Me and FuturisticHitman (yes a friend, but also a regular advanced poker player) both agree that folding is the correct option. I would also be tempted to post this on an ITH.com forum with many pro's that post to see their reaction tii.

It would appear people aren't "strong enough to lay it down". A straight isn't a big hand against higher straights and flushes.

I had no idea until storm said, that the player made the flush, but I did correctly make that read from the action. I hope that does show that I do actually know my stuff

I think the playing styles (as storma said) will change what to do in this hand pre flop, but post river i'd be folding, and pre flop i'm not loose aggressive (or loose passive) so I would be folding too.

the results dont matter, we are not discussing that we are discussing if calling is correct or not. As your buddie just said, it would be a mistake to call. Actully id be happy if you put this up on fullcontactpoker.com because I already know how Daniel proteges will answer

there is no definate fold or call answer here, it depends on how you play. I admit I was wrong in saying if you didnt call it would be wrong, but the original posters call was not incorrect. His play after the flop is not in question but he made best hand on turn and bet it and then the flush made it. He had odds to call the $18 but when he got re-raised he folded. Bottom line he played the hand textbook. Bet when he was ahead and folded when he was beat.

you do realize his hand can make the nut straight right? You say I could be beat by better straight well of course it "can" but that dosent mean im calling a $100 but with ass end of straight. Sometimes you have to be able to fold big hands, I can so I have no problem running this hand, and alot of players can. True some cant and those players should only play ABC style poker but players with the ability to lay down hands shouldnt hesitate to call this.

 

[Bombjack]

ALL this advice is fantastic in tournament Hold Em where you need to hit hands and make on your monsters.

Cash is a very diff story. Someone quote me sklansky saying low suited connectors are playable in late pre flop?

I'm not going to type the whole thing out, but in Sklansky's cash game pre-flop strategy (No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice, p124) he divides hands into 4 categories. The first and best is "Bread and Butter Hands": "the hands you should most like to see when you first look at your cards". = "all pocket pairs, ace-king, suited aces, and no gap suited connectors from king-queen suited down to five-four suited."
On this basis [5s][4s] is in a higher category than [ac][qh].
p. 127: "[As first to enter pot] Usually limp with no gap suited connectors [jd][10d] down to [5c][4c]"
p. 128: "[When two or more players have limped in front of you] Your "usually" plays should become "almost always" plays.... adopt a 95/5 ratio"
p.129 If someone has opened for a raise, in late position add all pocket pairs and no gap suited connectors down to five-four suited to the "usually call" list.

etc etc

it can be played if the player has amazing post flop skills as I said, but for a standard or even good player, its a situation which simply isnt needed! Why risk it in cash? ?!?!?!

People get tournament and cash strategy mixed up far too much. In tournies you may need to be calling like that. Odds matter more pre flop and you need to hit more hands etc...

You've got it totally the wrong way round. In tournaments you need to be aggressive and making sure you win the pots you enter, since your stack is relatively short compared to blinds and opening raises. In cash games, you want to be seeing flops cheaply and trying to win huge pots, with cards that make strong post-flop hands (e.g. suited connectors). With deep stacks, the size of the blinds and the pre-flop play becomes increasingly unimportant.

 

[MercilessKiller]

I think most pro's would fold in this situation due to the betting patterns in the hand.

I would definitely disagree with raising as your only getting called by the nuts...

Calling even shows weakness when theres still EP in the pot yet to play!

Anyway as I said in that situation i'm folding.

Whether I would in a real game is different, but textbook analysis of the hand its a fold.

The discussion is in the hand whether the river should be called, raised or folded. I'm going for folding. Most disagree but the betting patterns show teh flush, the person turned out to have the flush.. well i don't know why that can be argued but hey..

Oh and you'd be surprised at how many people say they can lay down big hands but then when it comes to it, they don't. Textbook analysis is VERY different from the real thing. (Storma I'm not suggesting you in this, i'm generalising players and forum posters )

This hand can make the nut straight but thats going to be so so so rare... and the implied odds arent there!!! If you hit your nuts straight how are you taking a $70 stack every single time? You need to rely on someone else hitting a strong hand... So then your looking of odds that you hit a striaght while osmeone else hits trips or 2 pair etc... so then the pot odds don't make sense?

To be fair, gratz to the op for coming up with a situation which has caused a lot of debate and discussion. All very fun and interesting

And Storma, if you duplicated the ops post on fullcontactpoker i'd be interested in the replies indeed!!!

 

[MercilessKiller]

I'm not going to type the whole thing out, but in Sklansky's cash game pre-flop strategy (No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice, p124) he divides hands into 4 categories. The first and best is "Bread and Butter Hands": "the hands you should most like to see when you first look at your cards". = "all pocket pairs, ace-king, suited aces, and no gap suited connectors from king-queen suited down to five-four suited."
On this basis 5♠4♠ is in a higher category than A♣Q♥.
p. 127: "[As first to enter pot] Usually limp with no gap suited connectors J♦10♦ down to 5♣4♣"
p. 128: "[When two or more players have limped in front of you] Your "usually" plays should become "almost always" plays.... adopt a 95/5 ratio"
p.129 If someone has opened for a raise, in late position add all pocket pairs and no gap suited connectors down to five-four suited to the "usually call" list.

etc etc
You've got it totally the wrong way round. In tournaments you need to be aggressive and making sure you win the pots you enter, since your stack is relatively short compared to blinds and opening raises. In cash games, you want to be seeing flops cheaply and trying to win huge pots, with cards that make strong post-flop hands (e.g. suited connectors). With deep stacks, the size of the blinds and the pre-flop play becomes increasingly unimportant.

on paragraph one.. i'm knit picking as so called but even sklansky says down to five-four suited and the op has 34 suited lol...

And in paragraph 2, you still have to think of long term EV. And calling to see flops with ATC when you have no intention of playing them without the monster is negative EV as the implied odds don't exist much of the time due to the difficulty of running into a big stack who has a big hand against your monster.

It all has to be used in the right position at the right time against the right opponents. The op had $200, and the person in the pot with the most was $70, thus only +EV if the op could take at least half of the Villain's stack with his monster. -EV in the long run really here...

 

[stormswa]

yea

I think most pro's would fold in this situation due to the betting patterns in the hand.

I would definitely disagree with raising as your only getting called by the nuts...

Calling even shows weakness when theres still EP in the pot yet to play!

Anyway as I said in that situation i'm folding.

Whether I would in a real game is different, but textbook analysis of the hand its a fold.

The discussion is in the hand whether the river should be called, raised or folded. I'm going for folding. Most disagree but the betting patterns show teh flush, the person turned out to have the flush.. well i don't know why that can be argued but hey..

Oh and you'd be surprised at how many people say they can lay down big hands but then when it comes to it, they don't. Textbook analysis is VERY different from the real thing. (Storma I'm not suggesting you in this, i'm generalising players and forum posters )

This hand can make the nut straight but thats going to be so so so rare... and the implied odds arent there!!! If you hit your nuts straight how are you taking a $70 stack every single time? You need to rely on someone else hitting a strong hand... So then your looking of odds that you hit a striaght while osmeone else hits trips or 2 pair etc... so then the pot odds don't make sense?

To be fair, gratz to the op for coming up with a situation which has caused a lot of debate and discussion. All very fun and interesting

And Storma, if you duplicated the ops post on fullcontactpoker i'd be interested in the replies indeed!!!

see here is the problem here, we are argueing different things, you are saying fold the river, well when guy pushes all his chips in yes of course fold. But for the origional $18 he has to call and guess what that guy I believe he had beat, I believe that guy had 2 pair. I will go to my other forum and post it and see what they say.

I was talking preflop I would call, no way im calling dude that pushed all in on river.

 

[MercilessKiller]

Pre flop I would sometimes fold, sometimes call.. majority of times fold though due to long term EV and other stacks.

Post river I would fold to the $18 bet as thats enough to say "ive got you all beat mwahahah".

 

[stormswa]

Pre flop I would sometimes fold, sometimes call.. majority of times fold though due to long term EV and other stacks.

Post river I would fold to the $18 bet as thats enough to say "ive got you all beat mwahahah".

then you would be wrong he didnt have him beat, the guy that had him beat didnt act yet. The guy that bet the $18 had 2 pair.


wait a minute this dosent make sense.

ugly, ugly, ugly.

$1/$2 NLHE, $40 buyin. I'm sitting on the button with around $200, EP is a solid TAG with about $70, MP is new and loose with $50, and CO is LAG with $200 or so too, BB is TAG with around $80

I'm dealt 3♣4♣
EP, MP, CO limp in. I call, SB folds (?), BB checks.

$11 pot
Flop A♥5♣J♦
BB, EP, MP and CO check, I check behind (slow playing Aces is common on the flop in this game - I've seen a lot of them check/raising)

Turn 2♥
BB checks, EP bets $4, MP raises to $12. CO folds.
I re-raise to $30, BB folds, EP and MP call.

$101 pot
River 10♥
EP checks, MP is all in for about $40 more.
I curse, scream, fume and fold, EP calls all-in

MP show K♥Q♥, nut flush and nut straight.
EP shows A♣2♣, two pair.



I assumed these were same 2 hands but in example in this thread it has MP betting $16 so not sure anymore.


so what do you want to know from FCP? if calling with 34 suited preflop is correct play? because I agree to folding river to the all in, never argued that but the $16 I say call so what you want to know.

 

[Bombjack]

$101 pot
River 10♥
EP checks, MP is all in for about $40 more.
I curse, scream, fume and fold, EP calls all-in

MP show K♥Q♥, nut flush and nut straight.
EP shows A♣2♣, two pair.

Am I missing something... where did zebransky post the results - or do you have some inside information stormswa? And doesn't MP in our post only have about $2 behind?

MercilessKiller - sorry for saying you don't know what you're talking about. All views are welcome. Feel free to call me an idiot if you don't agree with me - all part of the fun.

 

[stormswa]

double posted

Am I missing something... where did zebransky post the results - or do you have some inside information stormswa? And doesn't MP in our post only have about $2 behind?

MercilessKiller - sorry for saying you don't know what you're talking about. All views are welcome. Feel free to call me an idiot if you don't agree with me - all part of the fun.

he double posted in this section and in other one he put how not to play the wheel or 2 pair its about 8 posts down. I assumed it was same hand it sure looked like it was but I might of been mistaken.

 

[Bombjack]

he double posted in this section and in other one he put how not to play the wheel or 2 pair its about 8 posts down. I assumed it was same hand it sure looked like it was but I might of been mistaken.

Mmmm, I see what you mean. Definitely the same hand but looks like zebransky's messed up his re-telling of it. If MP actually has $40 behind on the river and moves in, it's a different story to what we've been debating.

 

[stormswa]

yea

Mmmm, I see what you mean. Definitely the same hand but looks like zebransky's messed up his re-telling of it. If MP actually has $40 behind on the river and moves in, it's a different story to what we've been debating.

I agree $16 to me would be fine call.

but

$40 is big difference.


I put it up on PPP lets see what they say.


in couple days I will put river decision and see what they say, there are alot of good players on there some I plan on meeting up with during wsop this year.

the preflop call.

 

[MercilessKiller]

$16 is the same as $40 information wise in this situation....

The odds are irrellevant when hes annoucned his hand and for me he's announced the flush on the river due to the way hes played the other streets

And ye i'm interested to know if anyone would call 34 suited every time on the button with 3 limopers and the blinds to act..

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

How does asking if anyone calls with 43s here all the time prove anything? The answer, of course, should be 'no', as it depends mainly on the table conditions. If I'm at a weak table full of people who overvalue TPWK etc then of course I'll call, but at a table of strong players I'll probably end up thinking that 43s is more hassle than it's worth (*most* of the time - I'll limp sometimes just because changing up your play is obviously important against stronger players) and fold it.

This whole debate amuses me in a way because you're both right and you're both wrong at the same time, just because you're tackling the question so generally.

 

[MercilessKiller]

Cheers Dorkus

Looks like im not the only one who would fold 43 suited pre flop in that situation (apart from to mix it up if uve been folding for the past 3 days on a dry run )

 

[Bombjack]

$16 is the same as $40 information wise in this situation....

The odds are irrellevant when hes annoucned his hand and for me he's announced the flush on the river due to the way hes played the other streets

I'd have to disagree on both your points. To give a clear example of the principle, I think you'd agree that someone who bets his remaining $100 into a $100 pot on the river has the goods more often than someone who who has only $2 left and decides to stick it into a $100 pot. So a small all-in bet doesn't give the same information as a big bet.

In the example above, would you fold the second case, where it's costing you $2 to call on a $102 pot? Of course not, because you only need to win about 2% of the time to make the call profitable, and he's bluffing a lot more often that that. So the range of hands you call with is also determined by the bet size.

Those are the two reasons why a $16 bet is different to a $40 bet in zebransky's case.

 

[MercilessKiller]

The $16 bet isn't making 2% pot odds though!!!!

I originally thought it was $16 not the push and personally I read him for that flush (or higher straight...)....

Personally, I am folding that river bet! I won't say everytime because situations include different players and styles, but for what we know from this hand and the information on these players I'd take my read more seriously than the maths...

(Maths is great in general terms yes but when yoiu have reads these come first so long their reliable..) for me anyway

 

[zebranky]

he double posted in this section and in other one he put how not to play the wheel or 2 pair its about 8 posts down. I assumed it was same hand it sure looked like it was but I might of been mistaken.

he double posted in this section and in other one he put how not to play the wheel or 2 pair its about 8 posts down. I assumed it was same hand it sure looked like it was but I might of been mistaken.

Dang it, I thought I had cancelled the other one before I posted it - mostly because I got the positions wrong (my notes were horrible for this hand - probably because I was eating dinner at the time. The ending, for the record (and at least 2 different people already figured this one out):

I call, EP pushes all in for about 20 more.
MP calls, I hate myself and fold (but the way EP plays, I know I'm beat).

EP shows the [Kh][Qh], for the nut flush (and top straight, not that it matters).

 

[zebranky]

$16 is the same as $40 information wise in this situation....

The odds are irrellevant when hes annoucned his hand and for me he's announced the flush on the river due to the way hes played the other streets

And ye i'm interested to know if anyone would call 34 suited every time on the button with 3 limpers and the blinds to act..

Absolutely not. I do it here because I'm fairly certain of seeing the flop w/out a raise. It is a fold 90% of the time on the flop, but it works out once in a while. The implied odds are great if I hit (say the flop is J34 - are you going to worry if you have a KJ?), so it's worth it if you have enough chips (both cash and tourney) to make an investemnt that doesn't work out very often.

 

[MercilessKiller]

the implied odds aren't as you see them! This is the misconception Futuristic hitman was talking about!

If your known as tight for example, then your not going to make a lot of money.. only if your image is loose aggressive can you consider implied odds, though if your opponent is tight then that goes out the window too!!!!

Implied odds exist post flop play in last position. You can read what people have or are drawing to and then read their betting patterns! Pre flop implied odds aren't as large because the loose aggros may hit nothing and fold, and the tight player may hit top pair but still fold to a bet (or check/call etc...)

in that 10% you hit, you wont be taking all $70 of your opponent. This is just my opinion and I wouldnt play it thinking of implied odds pre flop. If i was calling to mix it up it would be less than 5% of times tbh.

 

[Bombjack]

Odd play all round by EP. Surprised he didn't raise pre-flop with that, but I suppose it's OK from early position. Odd he chooses to check-raise the river... if MP hadn't foolishly bet, it would presumably have been checked down and he would have got no value... I might have bet this river though if it were checked to me, which would have been wrong in this case, but like I said earlier, pretty much the only hand that can beat you here is [kh][qh], and does he have this more often than not?

 

[MercilessKiller]

Bombjack, its bad play from EP yes but that's what you can expect from most cash games right? Lol Think the OP mentioned that EP was tight? That would explain the play.

 

[Bombjack]

Merciless - [as][kd] vs [3c][4c] equity pre-flop is 59.48 vs 40.01, with 0.51 to split. They're powerful hands. Your button equity is also huge. You don't have to win all $70 when it's $2 to call, since that suggests you'll only win 1 time in 35. Taken to showdown, [3c][4c] beats [as][kd] 14 times out of 35. The fact that you often can't continue to showdown is balanced by your ability to steal pots and get value when you do hit.

 

[MercilessKiller]

If it was against one caller then i agree with you completely. I'd rather have 34 v AK as a pair is good if you have good reading skills.

Otherwise its 34 v AK v QK v xx V 7T v every man and his dog

Striaghts, flushes, boats etc.. when theres 5 people in the hand, though implied odds MAY increase, it doesnt mean its profitable.

 

[Bombjack]

In the hand you describe, [3c][4c] vs [as][kd] vs [kh][qc] vs [7s][10h], the equities are 25.99, 30.11, 19.59, 23.44 respectively. [3c][4c] beats KQ and 7T and is very close behind AK.