Is bottom straight good?

[zebranky]

ugly, ugly, ugly.

$1/$2 NLHE, $40 buyin. I'm sitting on the button with around $200, EP is a solid TAG with about $70, MP is new and loose with $50, and CO is LAG with $200 or so too, BB is TAG with around $80

I'm dealt 3♣4♣
EP, MP, CO limp in. I call, SB folds (?), BB checks.

$11 pot
Flop A♥5♣J♦
BB, EP, MP and CO check, I check behind (slow playing Aces is common on the flop in this game - I've seen a lot of them check/raising)

Turn 2♥
BB checks, EP bets $4, MP raises to $12. CO folds.
I re-raise to $30, BB folds, EP and MP call.

$101 pot
River 10♥
EP checks, MP bets $16.
?

 

[alan1983]

I dont think he has the higher straight. Id prob put him on 2 pairs. But with flush on and him betting out i guess theres a flush chance.

16 $ could mean hes just throwing a shy stab 2 scare you, or it could mean he was 2 scared you wouldnt bet his flush. Id prob feel like raising but id call prob.

Edit: i changed my mind lol. Not many would re-raise on a flush draw. Im leaning towards raising.

 

[stormswa]

call

I would call no reason to bet here only going to get called if you are beat.

remember you also have someone to act behind you, I would call and if other guy pushes im folding.

 

[gord962]

I call - the only hands calling your raise are hands that have you beat, hands that you are beating will most likely fold to your raise.

 

[ChuckTs]

Call; this looks to me like a block bet with AT/AJ who is scared of a flush or straight. Dump it if EP comes over the top with a check-raise.

 

[Stick66]

With EP left to act, I'd raise to rep a big flush. You could get a little flush to fold. MP is almost all-in and EP has $38 left so he'd be all-in to call, anyway. He might not want to call off the last half of his stack to your raise.

MP almost looks like deperation. Why didn't he push for $18? Why did he keep $2? (Is my math correct?)

 

[zebranky]

MP almost looks like deperation. Why didn't he push for $18? Why did he keep $2? (Is my math correct?)

The short answer is that he probably did think he was all in. He pushed his entire stack forward, but forgot about the last chip he had on top of his cards.

 

[Stick66]

The short answer is that he probably did think he was all in. He pushed his entire stack forward, but forgot about the last chip he had on top of his cards.

Ohhh, it was LIVE. OK. (Hey, you're not supposed to vote in your own poll. :deal: Don't you know the answer already? )

 

[zebranky]

Ohhh, it was LIVE. OK. (Hey, you're not supposed to vote in your own poll. :deal: Don't you know the answer already? )

Of course I know the answer. That doesn't mean I got it right, though, or that in retrospect I got a different answer than at the table.

 

[Schatzdog]

Surely this is a made flush begging for value. And based on the voting, he's getting it.

 

[MercilessKiller]

Surely this is a made flush begging for value. And based on the voting, he's getting it.

I agree completely!!!

If this was a tournament it'd be different, but in cash the bet on the river means he usually has what he is representing UNLESS there is information to suggest otherwise such as him being loose aggressive!


With no information I'd be tempted to fold this one.

EDIT: By the way, the OP is in the position he is in on the river due to an awful awful pre flop call. The mistake pre flop led him to a bad situation and possibly making another mistaken play. 34 its rubbish unless you hit your monster quickly! (And just because you may do once doesn't mean its a profitable call!)

 

[alan1983]

I disagree about being in a bad position preflop.

I think 34s is a great hand 2 play in an unraised pot.

Just because hes facing a choice doesnt mean hes in a bad position. He has pocket aces beat! (thatd be a bad position ). And AJ too!

ok i guess he could have raised the turn on a draw. But folding to me is out of the question. Calling may be the best choice after all. No way id foled this anyway. its only 16$ more (till now?) into a 100$+ pot.

Theres def. more than a 20% chance hes got 2 pairs or sets! Why fold!

 

[Bombjack]

EDIT: By the way, the OP is in the position he is in on the river due to an awful awful pre flop call. The mistake pre flop led him to a bad situation and possibly making another mistaken play. 34 its rubbish unless you hit your monster quickly! (And just because you may do once doesn't mean its a profitable call!)

You don't know what you're taking about. 34 suited is a bread-and-butter NLHE hand, especially in a multi-way limped pot, and especially on the button.

 

[stormswa]

yes

You don't know what you're taking about. 34 suited is a bread-and-butter NLHE hand, especially in a multi-way limped pot, and especially on the button.

I agree 3 people limp in and you have 3-4 suited this is a fine call, I actually cant believe the small blind folded. Bombjack was already getting 3-1 on his call and knew the big blind would check so 4-1. I actually might of raised with it myself but thats just me.

If you are just going to run the top 8 or so hands you are not going to make it very far as a player. People are always going to know exactly what you have, lets not even add in the applied odds if you hit with that 34 suited.

If you posted this and it said you folded I would actually be yelling at you for folding.

 

[Bombjack]

Well obviously you're calling given what's in the pot. I really can't put EP on a flush. He's not getting the odds on the turn to call given the bets and the stack sizes, except maybe if he has exactly [kh][qh], which he'd raise pre-flop. He doesn't then check this river when he makes his hand. So raise away I say, hope he can't put you on a flush, and calls with a set.

 

[MercilessKiller]

ALL this advice is fantastic in tournament Hold Em where you need to hit hands and make on your monsters.

Cash is a very diff story. Someone quote me sklansky saying low suited connectors are playable in late pre flop?

Your rarely hitting on your straight. When you do hit your rarely making a massive profit this its -EV calling unraised.

I appreciate discussion fully.

i do NOT appreciate "You do not know what you're talking about". You can get lost with comments like that.

Unless you have fantastic post flop play you can get into a lot of trouble playing low suited connectors as what happened in that hand!!! THats the type of situation tats likely to occur when hitting a straight with that type of hand!

I just dont see why put yourself in that position? If you hit a 3 or 2 on the flop and its checked to you, mistakes can easily be made. If you hit an open ended or a flush draw your in a position where you may have to call bets due to pot odds but you shoudlnt really be in the hand. You could be putting yourself in a position where you face better straights or better flushes...

it can be played if the player has amazing post flop skills as I said, but for a standard or even good player, its a situation which simply isnt needed! Why risk it in cash? ?!?!?!

People get tournament and cash strategy mixed up far too much. In tournies you may need to be calling like that. Odds matter more pre flop and you need to hit more hands etc...

 

[MercilessKiller]

If you are just going to run the top 8 or so hands you are not going to make it very far as a player. People are always going to know exactly what you have, lets not even add in the applied odds if you hit with that 34 suited.

If you posted this and it said you folded I would actually be yelling at you for folding.

low suited connectors is very different from higher suited connectors.. plus mixing it up means a whole range of hands not neccesarily low ones.... In cash games top 8 is fine for making +EV! Obviously you want to play more hands but not ones where you can get into situations that make it -EV etc....

As for your last statement i disagree completely i'm afraid. If the op has great reading skills and knows the player, it could be a fantastic fold.

A discipline and strong fold is NOT foolish play....

 

[stormswa]

hey

low suited connectors is very different from higher suited connectors.. plus mixing it up means a whole range of hands not neccesarily low ones.... In cash games top 8 is fine for making +EV! Obviously you want to play more hands but not ones where you can get into situations that make it -EV etc....

As for your last statement i disagree completely i'm afraid. If the op has great reading skills and knows the player, it could be a fantastic fold.

A discipline and strong fold is NOT foolish play....

I dont need to read a book to see that im getting terrific odds to call, If I hit great and if I dont very simple to fold this. Im looking to hit the flop big or get out, if I flop a draw im only chasing if im drawing to the best possible hand, otherwards im drawing to the straight only most likley. Again im not chasing unless im getting correct odds to chase, if someone bets and everyone folds to me im folding because my implied odds are not killed.

with the odds your getting even as a TAG player it is correct to call, I dont feel like going back to the hand history but Im willing to bet anything if you do the math he has the correct odds to call with the preflop callers. It had to be 4-1 at least and that is what he needs to call with suited connectors. Them being low or high really has no bearing at all in the math, high suited connectors like say KQ or JT add a little bit more because of the high rank in the cards. Again im a LAG style player and I would bet with this because I sense weakness in all the limpers but thats just me.

I wouldnt go as far as origional poster and say you dont know what you are talking about but I do think you are mistaken here.

oh yea and if I hit a 2 or 3 or the flop and its checked to me im not making a mistake because im checking also.

another another thing: why risk it in cash? because it can be very very very profitable, your hand is well disguised at this point, thats why I personally raise with it.


just checked getting 4.5-1 to make the call preflop.

 

[MercilessKiller]

I think that really related to your style Storm.

Thank you for agreeing that the original poster went a bit too far. I appreciate debate on hands but dont feel personal comments are needed!

Anyway back to the hand... I think the player needs to be REALLY comfortable with post flop reads and play to be calling with the 34. In the case of hitting or folding, once again in the long run I don't think this is profitable at all due to higher straights and flush possibiilities. The reason i'd believe KQ or even KJ/KT suited would be better is due to the higher cards yes.. the reason is any 2 clubs are beating you if you hit a flush with 32.

If you hit your flush on the turn your risking your whole stack on another club not coming etc.. its just awkward situations you dont really need to get yourself into in cash games!

I completely agree with the way the hands played if it was tournament, but in cash I tend to think of long term EV and 34 suited even to limpers, i don't believe is a +EV call due to all the possibilities.

Even when you hit your monster, theres a lot of situations that will take your chips away. In an unraised post with 2 blinds, there could be other low connectors in the hand you cant predict so you could have your low straight while BB is sat with a higher low straight.. thats even harder to predict!

As for the river play personally I think its a fold because of the action on the turn suggesting at least one draw. The river card is making a lot of hands. The check from EP could mean anything for a tight aggro (trap or missed/weakness). The bet from MP could mean anything (hitting a draw, or not...)

For me I'd be out of there. I would like to know the outcome of the hand. I'd predict the higher straight or the flush simply because of action from EP and MP.

 

[stormswa]

k

I think that really related to your style Storm.

Thank you for agreeing that the original poster went a bit too far. I appreciate debate on hands but dont feel personal comments are needed!

Anyway back to the hand... I think the player needs to be REALLY comfortable with post flop reads and play to be calling with the 34. In the case of hitting or folding, once again in the long run I don't think this is profitable at all due to higher straights and flush possibiilities. The reason i'd believe KQ or even KJ/KT suited would be better is due to the higher cards yes.. the reason is any 2 clubs are beating you if you hit a flush with 32.

If you hit your flush on the turn your risking your whole stack on another club not coming etc.. its just awkward situations you dont really need to get yourself into in cash games!

I completely agree with the way the hands played if it was tournament, but in cash I tend to think of long term EV and 34 suited even to limpers, i don't believe is a +EV call due to all the possibilities.

Even when you hit your monster, theres a lot of situations that will take your chips away. In an unraised post with 2 blinds, there could be other low connectors in the hand you cant predict so you could have your low straight while BB is sat with a higher low straight.. thats even harder to predict!

As for the river play personally I think its a fold because of the action on the turn suggesting at least one draw. The river card is making a lot of hands. The check from EP could mean anything for a tight aggro (trap or missed/weakness). The bet from MP could mean anything (hitting a draw, or not...)

For me I'd be out of there. I would like to know the outcome of the hand. I'd predict the higher straight or the flush simply because of action from EP and MP.

guy made a flush with QK of hearts I believe.

as for the hand we are going to have to agree to disagree. But as for EV in long run I mean like over 5k - 10k hands it is +ev, Im not always chasing flush here. Like for instance say I call and hit a flush draw, If someone bets and gets 2 callers im most likley folding because im putting at least one of the callers on the flush draw because if they had a good hand they would of raised. Im looking to flop trips, or good straight draw like the open ended where the ace would give me the straight because then I can be sure it has hit someone.

everything depends on situation though and how strong your table is, If you got alot of LAG players I most likely wouldn't call this because against LAG's you want to tighten up. But in a table with alot of TAG style players this is the kinda hand you look for.

but again I see the points you make and I guess I wouldn't fault a tight player for folding here.

 

[FuturisticHitman]

Hey guys, rather new to this forum but post a bit on other forums, going to add my ideas to this hand...


First of all I'd like to know exactly that the game deffinately was 1/2 NL Hold 'Em, and that you chose to buy in for $40. Usually this is known as NL200 and the max buy-in at a capped game would be $200. Is this also a 6-max table? I'm assuming it is.

Preflop, I feel its a mistake to limp here. I dont think you need to limp with these kind of hands. 89s would be different, but 34s, I dont think its worth a play here so I'm mucking it most of the time preflop.


The turn is interesting, we have a bet out from a TAG player of $4, and a reraise by what you say is a loose player, new to the table. You're playing an effective stack of $70 here, since thats the biggest stack in the hand besides yours. At this point we need to try and work out what our opponents have and figure out the right play from that.
What are the quality of the players here? The bet and raise is probably meaning someone has something they want to play. But do people chase draws etc? I'm not 100% sure whether I'd have put it all in at this stage or whether I'd raise your amount and take the next street. If the loose player is gonna call he's leaving back not very much, and the early player is in a similar position.

The river is a pretty bad card for you. Its the fact that this guy is loose and new to the table that creates a little bit of confusion, but if you're unsure on the river, chances are you could well be beat. I think I have to put one of them on a flush draw here. What happens if you call and EP, who is yet to act, pushes on you too? Its a horrible situation, but I think I have to let it go.

I agree with MercilessKiller that this situation was created by the call preflop. I really dont think you need to be comming in with that much of a range of hands in this game. Especially as you say you have loose players on the table, why not just play the hands that is going to extract money from them, rather than calling with a weak suited connector? Plus the fact that you're at a 6 handed table deffinately puts me in the position of a fold here preflop.

MercilessKiller deffinately knows what he is talking about from what he's said about the hand, I dont think the harshness was necessary, everyone can have an opinion .

Hope some of what I've put here helps anyway.

 

[gord962]

Since you are both from Stafford, UK can I assume you know each other hence the sudden appearance on the site and immediate defense on your first post? I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, but it appears quite obvious that this is the case.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions - keep 'em coming! These threads aren't a whole lot of fun and no one learns anything if everyone were to agree every time. Great discussion!!!

 

[FuturisticHitman]

Yes I Know Merciless, he introduced me to this forum and I introduced him to my usual forum lol! I'd defend anyone in that situation though, dont get me wrong.

 

[stormswa]

k

Yes I Know Merciless, he introduced me to this forum and I introduced him to my usual forum lol! I'd defend anyone in that situation though, dont get me wrong.

I still disagree, if the player is strong enough to lay it down if they don't hit big hand it is still profitable. The implied odds are great if you hit. Anyone with a overpair is going to pay you off if you hit big. I agree though alot of players wouldn't be able to fold the flush draw so for those players yes fold.

but

if you are stong enough to fold then yes calling 4.5 - 1 is easy call or if you are me raise!!!!

 

[FuturisticHitman]

Many people dont fully understand the concept of implied odds. There are a few factors here, the implied odds of people in the hand are big when there was the guy with $200 in the hand. BUT, for implied odds to work out, you have to get paid when you hit. This is the bit thats hard to do and the bit many people dont understand. They just thing, "he still has some chips therefore implied odds". They have to hit something big enough to pay you off to a large extent, and that isnt happing a lot of the time depending on the players etc.