5c/10c ring card dead....top pair/ top kicker vs big bet.

JimboJim

JimboJim

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Was I tilting or did I do right? I haven't seen a good hand in a couple orbits. Villian has been pretty loose/aggrissive as far as I could tell. Wasn't paying 100% attention either.

pokerstars Game #8807144259: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2007/03/08 - 21:34:34 (ET)
Table 'Kilia' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: JimboJim711 ($8.05 in chips)
Seat 2: aloevera ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 3: jimmyboy33 ($9.10 in chips)
Seat 5: sevnkids ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 6: handyman tom ($2.20 in chips)
Seat 7: licuado ($13.85 in chips)
Seat 8: bicilotti ($7.35 in chips)
Seat 9: gstrobl ($38.70 in chips)
sevnkids: posts small blind $0.05
handyman tom: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to JimboJim711 [Ad Qs]
licuado: folds
bicilotti: raises $0.30 to $0.40
gstrobl: calls $0.40
JimboJim711: calls $0.40
aloevera: folds
jimmyboy33: folds
sevnkids: folds
handyman tom: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qh Jd 6h]
bicilotti: checks
gstrobl: checks
JimboJim711: bets $0.75
bicilotti: raises $1.75 to $2.50
gstrobl: folds
JimboJim711: raises $5.15 to $7.65 and is all-in
 
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joosebuck

joosebuck

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you have to think the raise at least means AKh. my first impression is aa/kk
 
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joosebuck

joosebuck

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in the future do not show the showdown. erase the action from yours on.
 
aloevera

aloevera

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I already know what happened cause I was there. So no comment!! LOL
 
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D

drtofu66

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Any read on villain? Against an unknown and with < 75BB effective stacks to start, I think this is fine. The CR on the flop doesn't smell like an overpair to me-- horrible board for AA/KK to risk giving a free card with; the only hand that I would CR that board with is KhTh. But then, I don't open raise KTs from EP.

Pokerstove says we're a 2.5:1 dog versus QQ+,AhKh,AhJh,AQ. If we can add KQ to his range, we're even money.

If we think he wouldn't CR with AA/KK/QQ and add KQ to his range we're a 2:1 favorite.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

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He was kinda loose agressive...I could put him on QJ but I was thinking more at KQ,KJ,AJ something along those lines. Previous hands seem like he was more agrressive on middle pairs with draws. I didn't see all his hands because I wasn't paying full attention. Personally I think I made a bad play, but I still don't know.
 
t1riel

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Could you really fold top pair best kicker?:confused: I think this was the right play despite the flush draw on the flop.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

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Could you really fold top pair best kicker?:confused: I think this was the right play despite the flush draw on the flop.

Well, I could if I pegged him as agressive, unfortunatly I was playing off of pure instinct and didn't think much about the hand.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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He may have been a LAG player but you still have to consider he might be holding J-J, or has he overbet PPs before?but being the LAG player that he is I'll put him on Q-Jos, Kh-10h.
 
NineLions

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*** FLOP *** [Qh Jd 6h]
bicilotti: checks
gstrobl: checks
JimboJim711: bets $0.75
bicilotti: raises $1.75 to $2.50
gstrobl: folds
JimboJim711: raises $5.15 to $7.65 and is all-in


Last time I did this, same hand, similar flop, same tables, villian had a pair of Qs.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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Could you really fold top pair best kicker?:confused: I think this was the right play despite the flush draw on the flop.

can you not? i love to sit at tables with people like you =/

top pair addiction is more dangerous than crack.
 
F Paulsson

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"not folding" and "going all-in" aren't synonymous outside of shoveaments.

Jim, explain your reasoning for pushing after getting check-raised.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

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"not folding" and "going all-in" aren't synonymous outside of shoveaments.

Jim, explain your reasoning for pushing after getting check-raised.

Well, like I said I could easily put him on a pair with a draw, I want to show strength and a re-raise would have to be an all-in. After I think about it it was way too possible for him to have a better hand. I still think it was push or fold because any bets on the turn would probably be close to an all-in anyway and I'm not sure if I could of folded unless another J K or heart showed. Better to show power and maybe exploit his weakness than to check-call every street with close to the same amount of chips in the long run...right?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Well, like I said I could easily put him on a pair with a draw, I want to show strength and a re-raise would have to be an all-in. After I think about it it was way too possible for him to have a better hand. I still think it was push or fold because any bets on the turn would probably be close to an all-in anyway and I'm not sure if I could of folded unless another J K or heart showed. Better to show power and maybe exploit his weakness than to check-call every street with close to the same amount of chips in the long run...right?
It's possible that you're thinking along the right lines, but in that case there are thought processes you're not sharing yet. Why do you want to show strength? What outcome are you aiming for? Do you want him to fold? What hands do you want him to fold and simultaneously expect him to fold?

I think you're making a very common mistake in this hand, and I want to get back to it.

(One thing I'd like to point out, though, is that you're in position. By moving in, you're stripping away that advantage. Not to say you should never move in when you're in position, of course)
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

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I was honestly thinking pair+flush draw. AJh or something like that. I also looked at a possibility of 2 pair. AKs, AQ was still a possibility but I didn't think he had that. I almost knew he had something but I was pretty sure he was drawing too. Plenty of money in the pot and I wouldn't mind taking it down. If he had QJ I thought I might be able to get him to fold. I also wanted him to think I had lots of outs so he might get scared.
 
A

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he had 7$, 3 of which are already in pot. I dont think he check raises for 2.50$ with a stack of 7 and then folds no matter what he has, even if just a draw. Btw you said "if he had qj you might get him 2 fold". or did i get that wrong? Qj is top two pairs!

I agree its push or fold probably, turn probably isnt gonna help your hand so you have 2 decide now if you think hes drawing or has you beat. But generally since you have position, and a scary card comes on turn, sometimes you could use that and make him fold a better hand but not when hes got half his 7$ in the pot. I think id push with a sigh just to spare myself the trouble on turn lol.

I think a middle pair with draw would bet out or check raise allin more often than that check raise. Seems like a strong made hand that wants 2 be paid off more than a draw, but theres no set rules for that.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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You have very little fold equity when you raise here. He's not going to fold AhJh, he's not even going to fold KT. Although you extract the maximum from these hands when he dutifully calls, you're also putting in the most when you're behind.

I'm not sure you should fold on the flop, but I don't get why people use that as a justification for going all-in. At least two people seem to think that your play was fine because you "shouldn't fold the flop." But again, folding and shoving are only two out of three options and I'm not sure why the third one is overlooked.
 
JimboJim

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I still don't think that there would be much that comes on the turn that could make me fold. The pot is already $4.20 and if I call it'll be $5.95. I'm still not going to have much fold equity. Would I believe 100% that he'll raise me on a draw? Hell of a risky fold if a heart comes. Same with a straight. Should I just cold call the turn too?

It does make me feel better that this hand was as tricky as it seemed to me.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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While there's not much that could convince you to fold, there's something that I think you're missing: If he's betting with a draw, you shouldn't want to raise. You want him to make the desperate attempt of pushing you out. By raising here on the flop, he will always fold his complete bluffs. True, he won't be bluffing very often, but all other things being equal, you should try to make money from his complete bluffs as well.

I didn't phrase that very well, but it's late and I've had beer. Let me know if you get what I mean.
 
NineLions

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You have very little fold equity when you raise here. He's not going to fold AhJh, he's not even going to fold KT. Although you extract the maximum from these hands when he dutifully calls, you're also putting in the most when you're behind.

FP, can you check my calculations for this in pot odds terms?

By my calculations, the pot to the villain is 9.75 and he's got to put in 5.15, or 1.9 to 1 pot odds or 53%. To get to a winning hand at 54% using the Rule of 4, doesn't KT need 13.5 outs? 8 for the straight and 3 Ks would only give him 11. Or were you saying Kh Th?

Ah Jh at least has got 9 for the flush, 3 for the Aces, 2 for the Js for 14, assuming Jim isn't playing JJ or QQ.
 
JimboJim

JimboJim

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While there's not much that could convince you to fold, there's something that I think you're missing: If he's betting with a draw, you shouldn't want to raise. You want him to make the desperate attempt of pushing you out. By raising here on the flop, he will always fold his complete bluffs. True, he won't be bluffing very often, but all other things being equal, you should try to make money from his complete bluffs as well.

I didn't phrase that very well, but it's late and I've had beer. Let me know if you get what I mean.

I understand...but what I'm getting at is the I would be happy taking down a $4 pot rather than chance him hitting his draw and me losing most of my stack. Is that bad thinking overall? This is actually a hole in my game knowing when to let my opponent draw out and when not to.

I've also had beer so fell free to laugh if I mucked up this paragraph.




FP, can you check my calculations for this in pot odds terms?

By my calculations, the pot to the villain is 9.75 and he's got to put in 5.15, or 1.9 to 1 pot odds or 53%. To get to a winning hand at 54% using the Rule of 4, doesn't KT need 13.5 outs? 8 for the straight and 3 Ks would only give him 11. Or were you saying Kh Th?

Ah Jh at least has got 9 for the flush, 3 for the Aces, 2 for the Js for 14, assuming Jim isn't playing JJ or QQ.

I'm not capible of calculating right now but just to point out thie villian was pretty loose and probably not playing his outs properly.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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FP, can you check my calculations for this in pot odds terms?

By my calculations, the pot to the villain is 9.75 and he's got to put in 5.15, or 1.9 to 1 pot odds or 53%. To get to a winning hand at 54% using the Rule of 4, doesn't KT need 13.5 outs? 8 for the straight and 3 Ks would only give him 11. Or were you saying Kh Th?

Ah Jh at least has got 9 for the flush, 3 for the Aces, 2 for the Js for 14, assuming Jim isn't playing JJ or QQ.
Hmm, I'm seeing a $11.35, and 5.15 to call (I think you may have missed that they were three to the flop). It's still close though, but my point was that if Jimbo gets called, he's (mostly) even money at best, and way behind at worst.
 
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