$50 Max: QQ Preflop to a raise and reraise

hott_estelle

hott_estelle

Guest
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Total posts
1,759
pokerstars Game #9609815290: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/04/25 - 23:06:03 (ET)
Table 'Eriphyla III' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: bubba2244 ($18.75 in chips)
Seat 2: hott_estelle ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: Cachañero ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Keep Honking ($10.50 in chips)
Seat 5: ShrtStckBluf ($65.75 in chips)
Seat 6: ITISGOTIME8 ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 7: CHIPSL1NGER ($30.70 in chips)
Seat 8: stigfossen ($71.85 in chips)
JT0ON will be allowed to play after the button
bubba2244: posts small blind $0.25
hott_estelle: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Qd Qc]
Cachañero: folds
Keep Honking: folds
ShrtStckBluf: raises $1.50 to $2
ITISGOTIME8: calls $2
CHIPSL1NGER: folds
stigfossen: folds
bubba2244: raises $4 to $6
hott_estelle: calls $5.50
ShrtStckBluf: folds
ITISGOTIME8: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [2c 7s Jh]
bubba2244: bets $12.75 and is all-in
hott_estelle: ??

First hand I got sitting down to this table. So no reads on anyone. Keep in mind the two stack sizes of the other two people in this pot, one that's all-in for $12.75 already before me and the other with only $2.75 left.

What can you put him on? AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ, 10-10?? And do you call or fold here?
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Total posts
13,414
I have to call here. You know the other player is pot committed and will be calling, so you're getting almost 3 to 1 on your money. You have no reads or history on them, so trending is out. Both are extremely short stacked for the table, so ranges are large me thinks. Our limited information + strength of our hand + pot odds + ranges that we're probably mostly ahead of = call.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
I honestly think you could make a really good fold here. You are basically never ahead here unless this guy's a huge donk. He almost never plays TT like this. There are no draws. JJ and AK were the only realistic holdings you beat PF... now JJ beats you, and AK almost never plays it this way. IMO this will be AK like 10% of the time, other donk crap you beat like 10% of the time, and AA, KK, or JJ 80% of the time (okay, and QQ <1% of the time).

He made a re-raise begging for a call knowing that he's going to be out of position. It screams big made hand and boom, we're drawing to 2 outs. It's just the fact that we have no reads and he could be a huge donk which makes it a bit harder.
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
Hello,

I have a couple of Comments

What was your plan pre flop?

Reasons to Call?: You decided to call. you Know when you call that at least one of the two players behind will call ( basic odds ) and that ITISGOTIME may even push his whole $9. Were you hoping this to happen so that you could push too?

I doubt that you call to try and hit trips as you know this is low odds and you also know that someone is likely to push/bet heavy on the flop regardless.

Therefore the only other thought process I can see is that you were hoping to see the flop and reduce the odds of getting beaten by an all-in with overcards by only calling on the flop if there is no overcards on the flop?



On the flop

To be profitable you need to win 40% of the time when you call in this position..........

To me - if you think that there too much action for your QQ in this position then you should have realised this before the flop and not flat called.

I also think that because you decided to play this hand preflop that you are priced in. ( I agree with you hand range for Opponents - hence 40% would be profitable )
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
Lets see, pot is $32.75. I might be wriong but I think the other has $3.50 left, not $2.75. If that is the case then we can consider pot being $36.25 total since he will certainly call. So you're QQ is getting about 3 to 1 odds and you don't have to put anymore money here.

As a 1st hand situation on a table this sucks. It sure smells like you're behind here so I won't argue folding. But since you're getting 3 to 1 and considering Caliban's calculation of a call being profitable 40% of the time I won't argue calling either. Also, you won't have to put any more money in here.

I've seen players make bets like this with AK because pot is too big ($20) for them to give up when they miss. Not having info on this player makes AJ a possibility even if his reraise PF wouldn't explain it.

I'll look up later what you did here but I can say right now that I won't argue it, because a good case can be made for folding or calling, even if it appears you're behind.
 
tosborn

tosborn

Visionary
Joined
Feb 26, 2007
Total posts
579
This is a classic WA/WB situation. Without reads and knowing that you won't have to put anymore into this pot you have to call.
 
D

drtofu66

Guest
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Total posts
32
Nitty of me, but I fold PF. ShrtStckBluf folded to the reraise but if he just calls or re-re-raises, where are you with your queens OOP?

I don't play PS and I don't play at these stakes but bubba could easily be a short-stack ninja. The fact that he's doing this out of the SB makes me think that he's got AT LEAST AK but probably better-- and he doesn't need to be a SSN for that.

As played with an overpair and short money, I have to call
 
calibanboy

calibanboy

Guest
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Total posts
363
Nitty of me, but I fold PF. ShrtStckBluf folded to the reraise but if he just calls or re-re-raises, where are you with your queens OOP?

I don't play PS and I don't play at these stakes but bubba could easily be a short-stack ninja. The fact that he's doing this out of the SB makes me think that he's got AT LEAST AK but probably better-- and he doesn't need to be a SSN for that.

As played with an overpair and short money, I have to call

I Totally Agree with this, you put it far better than I did.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
If he's a good player he has AA/KK here approximately always. Smallish call-me re-raise OOP = big hand.

I don't mind calling pre-flop, hoping he has AK and doesn't hit but I'd just think he has it when he shoves into 2 people. He could have JJ but you also lose to that on this board.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

Guest
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Total posts
1,759
PokerStars Game #9609815290: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/04/25 - 23:06:03 (ET)
Table 'Eriphyla III' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: bubba2244 ($18.75 in chips)
Seat 2: hott_estelle ($50 in chips)
Seat 3: Cachañero ($47.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Keep Honking ($10.50 in chips)
Seat 5: ShrtStckBluf ($65.75 in chips)
Seat 6: ITISGOTIME8 ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 7: CHIPSL1NGER ($30.70 in chips)
Seat 8: stigfossen ($71.85 in chips)
JT0ON will be allowed to play after the button
bubba2244: posts small blind $0.25
hott_estelle: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Qd Qc]
Cachañero: folds
Keep Honking: folds
ShrtStckBluf: raises $1.50 to $2
ITISGOTIME8: calls $2
CHIPSL1NGER: folds
stigfossen: folds
bubba2244: raises $4 to $6
hott_estelle: calls $5.50
ShrtStckBluf: folds
ITISGOTIME8: calls $4
*** FLOP *** [2c 7s Jh]
bubba2244: bets $12.75 and is all-in
hott_estelle: calls $12.75
ITISGOTIME8: folds (WHAT!, WOW, what is he doing here??)
*** TURN *** [2c 7s Jh] [Th]
*** RIVER *** [2c 7s Jh Th] [8d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bubba2244: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
hott_estelle: shows [Qd Qc] (a pair of Queens)
bubba2244 collected $43.30 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $45.50 | Rake $2.20
Board [2c 7s Jh Th 8d]
Seat 1: bubba2244 (small blind) showed [Kc Kd] and won ($43.30) with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: hott_estelle (big blind) showed [Qd Qc] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 3: Cachañero folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Keep Honking folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ShrtStckBluf folded before Flop
Seat 6: ITISGOTIME8 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: CHIPSL1NGER folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: stigfossen (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)


OK, here's my reasoning for this hand, I think I might have made the mistake preflop, obv, post flop I think I made the right play. Here goes my philosophy.

Normally, when I first sit at a table, I avoid getting involved in big pots and just observe how others play for a round or two, so I get the general reads on most the people on the table. I can get a general idea on who's the donk, who's a solid TAG or LAG, and who doesn't know what the hell he's doing.

I do this, because of the situation presented above, the raise from the shortstack and then the reraise over the top does not help me at all, since this is my first hand. The reraiser's range could be absolutely anything. Normally as played, I think preflop, it would have been a tough call or a tough fold, 50/50. But here, being the first hand, I just thought I had to call here and see how it goes on the flop.

Now, on the flop, it does seem promising, but it is definitely deceiving. If the original reraiser is just a solid TAG or even just the normal conventional player, then that flop is horrible for us, because of the obv reasons. Anyways, after the flop of all under cards, and then the all-on raise, essentially we have to believe we're behind (against a conventional player). Now, being my first hand, there's no way I have any idea what hand he has here. AK push here, from a very loose player, can definitely be possible. But AA or KK is also just as possible. However, considering the guy behind me only had about $3.50-ish, and the pot size, and the odds I was getting--with no reads--I think the call was the right play, in this given situation. I did make a mistake preflop, but given my mistake I think the postflop play has to be a call.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
If you're going to call when he shoves a board of undercards, you might as well shove pre-flop, because you're saying you don't believe he has KK+. But his flop shove is even more evidence that he has it, so just calling pre-flop then calling the shove makes no sense.

With no reads at $50 NL you should generally give a player credit for being solid, rather than a loose donk, until you've got to know the table.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

Guest
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Total posts
1,759
I called with the intent on folding with an AK on board. I think with an A or K on the board, we can safely fold, even with the pot odds. However, considering it is all under cards, that's why I called postflop. Yes, it may have been horrible in hindsight, but considering this is the first hand and no reads, there's no other move here but call the flop with those odds.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Total posts
13,414
I'm just curious why everyone seems to always go on about how not to worry about villian's KK or AA because if he has it then that's poker, but now in this hand he must have it so lay it down. You can't say it is because of reads because we didn't have any. You can claim it is the flop push, but short stack desperation plays the same way. Then there's the "50NL still has donks logic, unless of course they don't" logic as presented here. Think about it, the knuckle head with $2.75 left folded with 234235425432 to 1 pot odds, but we should always give 50NL internet players benefit of the doubt? Right. With no reads, we're stuck playing these cards for what they are, third best starting hand. Maybe it could have been played differently, but as played, with the lack of info, the call is perfectly reasonable (and IMO, to which others I'm sure will disagree, was the better move).

Nice call Estelle.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
If he's a reasonable player, there's no way you can call his shove on the flop. There's really no point in him bluffing because he has basically no fold equity against the short stack and not that much against you.

The whole argument seems to be that we should call because he might be a donk. While that logic might prevail at $5 NL, you really can't assume that here, and anyway, it's not a very strong argument to begin with.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Total posts
13,414
AJ and TT from soon-to-be pot-committed, OOP short stack easily plays the same way. Heck, with that description KT or 99 could play out as well (though I guess I'm about to hear how no one at 50NL would ever play KT for a raise from the SB). Sure, maybe he's the short stack ninja. Then again maybe he's on the way out of his third buy-in. Point is neither the "he's a pro" nor the "he's a donk" arguments are sustainable in this hand as we have no reads on him or any history of the table. And being 50NL isn't the end all argument for simply giving him credit for KK or AA nor does it mean he's playing T2off. I think we have to look at him as an average player.

With plenty of justifiable hands combined with his position and stack size, I guesstimate that we are ahead of his range 50% of the time and behind 50%. While obviously not perfect, it's a reasonable conclusion, I think, based on what we know. And based on that and getting nearly 3 to 1 on my money, I still favor calling.

Eh, he had KK. That's poker.
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
ITISGOTIME's fold is absolutely hilarious. As I posted before I won't argue any decision made here by Estelle, because I think a very good case can be made for both.

If anything this probably was a good fold preflop with his reraise OOP.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
Urgh, saying "oh, he could have AJ or TT" implying if he's a terrible enough player, it just seems a bit ridiculous. If he's a terrible enough player he could have ANYTHING. If you're not going to use the information your opponents are giving you, why play poker? Again, I understand it's sort of difficult to lay down without a read, because there are some fish out there, but as I said in my first post, I think you can make a fold as it's AA, KK, or JJ like 80% of the time from any sort of reasonable player.

If you take any idea away from it, I'd say it should be that if you have any inkling that the guy's even decent, and not a total donk, this should be a fold you get accustomed to making. Take the information your opponents are giving you.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

Charcoal Mellowed
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Total posts
13,414
Urgh, saying "oh, he could have AJ or TT" implying if he's a terrible enough player, it just seems a bit ridiculous.
It's no worse than saying a player you know nothing about should be given credit for AA, KK, or JJ right here everytime.

...I think you can make a fold as it's AA, KK, or JJ like 80% of the time from any sort of reasonable player.
Oops, my bad, wasn't aware of that statistic. :eek:

...if you have any inkling that the guy's even decent, and not a total donk...
But we don't. We have no read. First hand of table and no history. He could be a pretty good player with donkish tendencies. He could be Phil Ivey putzing around at 50NL. He could also be someone's 10 year old kid. Guess the idea is assume the absolute worst and fold?

Take the information your opponents are giving you.
Does that include ignoring the information that doesn't fully support a theory? I mean things like a believing a very short stack can't push from OOP with anything less that AA or KK and such. So help me understand what information exactly am I ignoring or failing to consider?
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

Guest
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Total posts
1,759
JD is my hero. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ all that, is what I was going to say.

He does my posting for me.

Anyways, this is a very controversial play, I think arguments can be made to make a lot of different plays here, but I think the way I played it was the way to play--given the situation.

And to this---

ITISGOTIME's fold is absolutely hilarious. As I posted before I won't argue any decision made here by Estelle, because I think a very good case can be made for both.

If anything this probably was a good fold preflop with his reraise OOP.

Like I said, maybe with some reads, I think I could fold preflop with a bit more ease, but at the moment I think without any idea how he plays we have to call preflop and see how it goes and the flop turns out.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
Although you do sometimes wonder, when you see hands like this:

Seat 1: Adasiooo7 ($25.30 in chips)
Seat 2: sidistoo ($20.50 in chips)
Seat 3: leon_o_flou ($17.90 in chips)
Seat 4: rinrout ($52.10 in chips)
Seat 6: Urji9le ($18.00 in chips)
Seat 7: flammen98 ($6.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Liffy x ($44.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Bombjack_x [
heartJ.gif
spadeJ.gif
] ($50.60 in chips)
Seat 10: siis26 ($79.50 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
flammen98 posts blind ($0.25), Liffy x posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
Bombjack_x bets $2, siis26 folds, Adasiooo7 folds, sidistoo bets $3.50, leon_o_flou folds, rinrout folds, Urji9le folds, flammen98 bets $5.75 and is all-in, Liffy x folds, Bombjack_x calls $4, sidistoo calls $2.50.

FLOP [ board cards
diam9.gif
diam3.gif
club2.gif
]
Bombjack_x checks, sidistoo bets $14.50 and is all-in, Bombjack_x calls $14.50.

TURN [ board cards
diam9.gif
diam3.gif
club2.gif
diamJ.gif
]

RIVER [ board cards
diam9.gif
diam3.gif
club2.gif
diamJ.gif
clubJ.gif
]

SHOWDOWN
sidistoo shows [
club3.gif
club7.gif
]
flammen98 shows [
spadeQ.gif
clubQ.gif
]
Bombjack_x shows [
heartJ.gif
spadeJ.gif
]
Bombjack_x wins $46 .
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
Lol, $14.50 all-in bet after the flop with 73 on that board. When you look at this play that "shortstack desperation" mentioned by JD comes to mind.

I've seen shortstacks do this type of play before, which is why I said that in Estelle's situation a good case could be made for both calling or folding. There were many different opinions on this hand and when you reread them they all make sense.

It also brings a better question: should you just stay away from reraised PF pots when you have no reads on these players yet with a hand like QQ? I think the answer to that should probably be yes, because its easy to predict that if the pot is ~$20 PF on a $50max table, at some point you will be faced with a tough decision without having enough info to make a somewhat educated guess.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Total posts
641
i think i make the call postflop since i see a lot of shortstacks whose range for reraising is a lot wider than usual. he couldve lost a few hands and has loosened up a lot now.

Its not his shove on flop that worries me as much as his preflop reraise.

He could shove flop with AK-TT whatever, as a last resort kind of move, but i think AK-TT is much more likely to shove preflop than make a 3-bet preflop that as BJ said is begging to be called. So i think the time to lay it down was preflop
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Total posts
4,279
Awards
1
Didn't read the other posts. Fold. Reasons are obvious.
 
Top