$5 NLHE 6-max: 3 Betting 88 from SB, low flop

[GreenDaddy1]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 30/20/1

Both villains look like slightly loose weak types ( both around 30/20/1).

I can maybe just flat here vs some opponents, but preferred to 3 bet this time to iso and head into flop as aggressor. (This is the worst pair I 3 bet vs UTG.)

Fortunate flop given both called. I'm betting to protect against weak broadway and Ax hands that called the 3 bet and can improve to better pairs on turn/river. Also the odd flush draw will call. I know I'm sunk vs any bigger pairs so would fold to aggression.

Decent turn. Thinking with the barrel is similar to flop. Happy to see a fold, but I dont think all is lost if they call. Again I'd be folding if raised.

Boat up on river. Ship it for max value the times that I'm not dominated by a better pair, wanting to avoid a check/check on river.


I think I can get myself into a shedload of trouble with this sort of 3 bet. Interested in thoughts on how to navigate flops/boards less kind than this one when 3 betting stuff like 88, 99 etc. Should I just call here instead vs the weaker guys and save the loose 3 bet for those i know have high fold to 3 bet? VS a regular tight UTG I'm considering a 3 bet with 88+, AJs, KQs, AK & AQ. I'm not just on auto pilot though, I'll also call or fold based on the villain type/stats and my position. I stick to a linear value range, don't see the point of being polarised at stakes this low.







Pacific Poker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 148.8 BB
Hero (SB): 138 BB
BB: 57.4 BB
UTG: 163.6 BB
MP: 84 BB
CO: 126 BB

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8♠ 8♥

UTG raises to 2.4 BB, MP calls 2.4 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9.6 BB, fold, UTG calls 7.2 BB, MP calls 7.2 BB

Flop: (29.8 BB, 3 players) 4♣ 6♦ 4♦
Hero bets 13.2 BB, fold, MP calls 13.2 BB

Turn: (56.2 BB, 2 players) 2♦
Hero bets 22.2 BB, MP calls 22.2 BB

River: (100.6 BB, 2 players) 4♠
Hero bets 52.2 BB, MP calls 39 BB and is all-in

Spoiler

Hero shows 8♠ 8♥ (Full House, Fours full of Eights)
(Pre 55%, Flop 73%, Turn 70%)
MP shows Q♦ A♠ (Three of a Kind, Fours)
(Pre 45%, Flop 27%, Turn 30%)
Hero wins 168.2 BB

 

[eetenor]

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 30/20/1

Both villains look like slightly loose weak types ( both around 30/20/1).

I can maybe just flat here vs some opponents, but preferred to 3 bet this time to iso and head into flop as aggressor. (This is the worst pair I 3 bet vs UTG.)

Fortunate flop given both called. I'm betting to protect against weak broadway and Ax hands that called the 3 bet and can improve to better pairs on turn/river. Also the odd flush draw will call. I know I'm sunk vs any bigger pairs so would fold to aggression.

Decent turn. Thinking with the barrel is similar to flop. Happy to see a fold, but I dont think all is lost if they call. Again I'd be folding if raised.

Boat up on river. Ship it for max value the times that I'm not dominated by a better pair, wanting to avoid a check/check on river.


I think I can get myself into a shedload of trouble with this sort of 3 bet. Interested in thoughts on how to navigate flops/boards less kind than this one when 3 betting stuff like 88, 99 etc. Should I just call here instead vs the weaker guys and save the loose 3 bet for those i know have high fold to 3 bet? VS a regular tight UTG I'm considering a 3 bet with 88+, AJs, KQs, AK & AQ. I'm not just on auto pilot though, I'll also call or fold based on the villain type/stats and my position. I stick to a linear value range, don't see the point of being polarised at stakes this low.







Pacific Poker - $0.05 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 148.8 BB
Hero (SB): 138 BB
BB: 57.4 BB
UTG: 163.6 BB
MP: 84 BB
CO: 126 BB

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8♠ 8♥

UTG raises to 2.4 BB, MP calls 2.4 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9.6 BB, fold, UTG calls 7.2 BB, MP calls 7.2 BB

Flop: (29.8 BB, 3 players) 4♣ 6♦ 4♦
Hero bets 13.2 BB, fold, MP calls 13.2 BB

Turn: (56.2 BB, 2 players) 2♦
Hero bets 22.2 BB, MP calls 22.2 BB

River: (100.6 BB, 2 players) 4♠
Hero bets 52.2 BB, MP calls 39 BB and is all-in

Spoiler

Hero shows 8♠ 8♥ (Full House, Fours full of Eights)
(Pre 55%, Flop 73%, Turn 70%)
MP shows Q♦ A♠ (Three of a Kind, Fours)
(Pre 45%, Flop 27%, Turn 30%)
Hero wins 168.2 BB

Thank you for posting

I have not seen results yet.

Ok preflop -

OOP with 88
half the deck is an over on the flop
we have two loose players
we decide to raise an EP raiser who if they call the second Villain will call 70% of the time or more?
pot is 6.2 we raise to 9.6 pot equals 15.8
EP V is getting 2-1 so they only need hands with 33% vs our 88
All of the broadway cards have the right equity to call and V is IP vs us.
Equity realization OOP in a 3 way hand is very difficult
If your goal was to get folds was this the correct sizing?


On flop we have a good hand but half the deck is still an over
Flop sizing gives the MP player 4.26-1 odds so under 20% equity needed to call V hand is 26% vs our 88.

Turn we bet- V now getting 4.5-1 need 18% to call hand value has 29.55%

Nice win. Poker is easy when V play like this. Always look for this player when you play and value bet them to death.

Hope this helps

 

[Endwarfin]

Im confused about leading the flop AND turn.

You say -

I'm betting to protect against weak broadway and Ax hands that called the 3 bet and can improve to better pairs on turn/river. Also the odd flush draw will call.

On the flop what is your opponent (Who called a three bet after calling utg open) going to call you with?


I ran 22+, A10o+ (All with 1 diamond q or higher) and threw in A2s+ (diamonds) and on the flop you only have 52% equity.
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I would expect a decent opponent to be tighter yet, leading this board almost certainly narrows villain's range into a spot where almost all of the range we are ahead of when called is flush draws.
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If the flop goes check check / check call we can find more non diamond combos of value in their range.
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When the diamond comes on the turn - its really really bad for us. The largest part of villains range that we were ahead of improved - and we bet again?
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Imagine if villain had flopped top full house or even quads - We've bet flop, bet turn, and villain has less than a half pot bet left for his full stack, without ever taking an aggressive action even preflop.
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Aside from the flop bet completely changing the dynamic of the range we should be expecting to see, our plan of folding to aggression is

When our line is Bet Bet Bet and that gets our opponent all in - why do they ever need to show aggression?

All that being said as villain I would sometimes have folded pre most likely would have folded the flop and almost always folded the turn.

 

[mktpppr]

P: very standard flat.

Our 3bet is really bad:
1. small-ish sizing,
2. OOP,
3. potentially multi-way,
4. vs 30/20 guys x2,
5. in micros,
6. in fast-fold format.


F: as played, I don't know what to do. All 99+ flatted pre vs our 3bet, so we could be value-owning ourselves.

It's an ok-ish flop: it's low, paired and connected, so draws and overcards from 30/20 types aren't folding, especially not to our small cbet sizing of 44% pot.

I guess cbetting is ok, maybe bigger sizing to 67-75% pot, even 50% pot.

T: as played, check/evaluate. We have to slow down on bad turn.

R: as played, check/call, don't jam. We want cheap showdown if possible.

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This hand is similar preflop to AKs 4bet hand you posted recently: meaning, you turn medium strength hands into bluffs preflop, which makes no sense.

To beat micros just play solid value-heavy TAG style with position and initiative.

My suggestion: fix fundamentals and play normal tables. Fast-fold format punishes leaks with extreme prejudice.

 

[GreenDaddy1]

Thanks. I think I need to go back and revise my 3 and 4 bet ranges, have got too carried away with aggressive tactics and reasons why vs some or perhaps all opponents. The sheer aggression of it works to an extent but there is no question I value own myself at times, and lose value other times. I'm a moderate winner whether I play 2nl, 5nl or 10nl at fast fold or normal, but I've never been a crusher and stuff like this is why.

And post flop yeah I make a mess of the valuation of hands and ranges I some situations. Revising 3 and 4 bets a walk in the park I think compared to fixing that but just have to keep plugging away.