100NL QQ

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alan1983

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Villain joined table 2 hands earlier, this is 1st hand he was active in

Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/08/31 - 11:57:42 (ET)
Table 'Ymir' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: alan1983 ($112.65 in chips)
Seat 2: Hiroyui ($59.50 in chips)
Seat 3: TallTexan2 ($101.35 in chips)
Seat 4: Br0kenFace ($196.50 in chips)
Seat 6: venkanto ($106.90 in chips)
Seat 7: Princess43 ($30.80 in chips)
Seat 8: Olia ($96 in chips)
Seat 9: xxxvitoxxx ($7.55 in chips)
TallTexan2: posts small blind $0.50
Br0kenFace: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to alan1983 [Qh Qd]
venkanto: folds
Princess43: folds
Olia: raises $2.50 to $3.50
xxxvitoxxx: folds
alan1983: calls $3.50
Hiroyui: folds
TallTexan2: folds
Br0kenFace: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ts 2d 8c]
Olia: bets $8.10
alan1983: calls $8.10
*** TURN *** [Ts 2d 8c] [5s]
Olia: bets $23.50
alan1983: calls $23.50
*** RIVER *** [Ts 2d 8c 5s] [Td]
Olia: bets $60.90 and is all-in
alan1983:.....?

Im thinking i could have played the earliest streets much better maybe, is river a call here?
 
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bw07507

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I Would have definately reraised preflop and then bet or raised the flop. As played I probably fold the river there.
 
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ajrenni722

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You are getting better than 2:1 on the river and you have shown weakness throughout the hand. He could have virtually any pocket pair here and maybe not even that. I think you have to call.

I would have made a pot sized reraise pre-flop to get value out of the numerous hands that would call, many of which you crush.

As played, I would have raised the flop. Top pair and JJ would certainly have called a raise, and maybe AK, QJ and 99 as well.
 
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joeeagles

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This is tough to fold with no reads.

About the earlier streets, the passive approach you used can be good at times, especially on such a board where the only draw (J9) is very unlikely. The only thing I'd change, if I were playing, is probably shoving the turn, but that doesn't mean your line is wrong. I don't know how expert ring players would handle this spot on the turn, but even if I would have done different, the way you played it doesn't look terrible to me. Between flat calling or shove/raising the turn, I'm not sure which of the 2 hides the strength of your hand better. For sure, if the raise/shove makes worse hands fold every time where instead the flat call will induce river bluffs, then your way is the right way.

About the flop, since you decided not to 3bet PF, I believe you played it correctly with a flat call on this board. That's my opinion. You probably have a better chance villain fires again on the turn rather than calling a raise, unless he really has a T and isn't c-betting with 2 overcards. Between him folding to a raise or taking the chance of getting outdrawn, I opt for the latter, therefore I like the flat call. That's how I look at it but I may stand wrong

His river bet might be because he has a T or because you showed weakness throughout and now he wants to represent a T. Chances are he makes this bet on almost whatever card shows up on the river, given the line he followed throughout (pot size bets).

If he has a T would he make a bet this big? Maybe he would, for sure not knowing him at all doesn't help in assessing that. I expect to see a T a certain amount of times here, so I don't think a fold is totally wrong and I'd understand it. It's not about odds at this point, and it's not about info either cause the price just isn't worth it, it's about feeling if you're ahead or behind, and as much good judgement you try to use, you really have no way to know.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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raise somewhere. that goes for like any street. at 100NLpeople will put too much in preflop with crappy hands once they've already "invested", and they'll also go broke with top pair often.

as played, you're getting fairly good odds and you played the hand passively, but if he doesn't have a T or full house, he ought to be far too worried about you having a T to make a bluff here, given how the hand played out. could be a careless reckless bluff, but i probably fold

ajrenni: makes no sense for him to turn "any pocket pair" into a bluff here when we've been calling down and the top card paired on the end
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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i would have liked to have seen a big reraise after the turn bet but since you didnt i think you have got to give him A10 and fold this one.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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the way you played it you have to fold.

by the way I hate the way you played it....call....call....call? :confused:


this hand was missplayed every single street and preflop.
 
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broncos53

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Um Reraise preflop or raise on flop.....but ummm fold you have to after you made those bad plays....
 
SeanyJ

SeanyJ

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Just like everyone else is saying, with the way you played this hand you have to fold now. I would have re raised pre flop and after the flop as well.
 
pokernut

pokernut

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I don't like it at all. Why are we slow playing queens? You have to find out where you're at some point during the hand....pre....flop....turn? This hand is a lost cause now, you have to muck em.

You have to establish yourself at some point during this hand. QQ is not a hand to slowplay IMO. Too many questionable decisions will occur after the flop with a hand like this. You need to find out where you're at, and use your position to your advantage if scare cards come.
 
winneronline

winneronline

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3 bet preflop...

As played, raise flop....

You did one mistake after another... There is no point in talking about calling the river bet.
 
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alan1983

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is qq an automatic reraise preflop?

im thinkin i shouldve here, since player was unknown too, but tbh i dont automatically think 3bet when i get them
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Absolutely standard 3-bet PF. As played, I have to fold this.
 
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bw07507

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QQ preflop is a 3bet about 99% of the time for me
 
GiveUpFishy

GiveUpFishy

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the only thing u can beat on the river is a bluff or maybe pocket jacks, u should have raised the flop to get a feel for where hes at and go from there but i think on the river ur beat
 
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ajrenni722

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is qq an automatic reraise preflop?

im thinkin i shouldve here, since player was unknown too, but tbh i dont automatically think 3bet when i get them

In addition to missing out on value (you are probably a 3:2 favorite against his range), you have to think about the effect that just calling will have on the 3 players behind you. By smooth calling, you are giving the remaining opponents tempting odds to call as well, especially the big blind. Every player who enters the pot with a pocket pair, suited connectors, or an overcard to your queens cuts into your equity. None of these hands can play if you reraise, so if you do, you should get to play the hand heads up, in position, where your lone opponent knows that you intend to play for this pot. Use your preflop play to set up the post-flop situation you want.
 
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alan1983

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well tbh, i didnt want to play a big pot since i was up a lot that session and wanted 2 leave when blinds reached me on that table, so was kind of suckered into it, which is why i went into passive mode, unconsciously, even though like i said QQ isnt always a reraise for me.

The thing is when you get a low flop, you can usually maneuver postflop with QQ< but the villains evry strong betting later, made it a mistake for me not to raise preflop with QQ, although ill say i can get away with that against many other players

As for postflop, i think cold calling flop is ok. I dont think a raise would let me know where i stand here. I didnt reraise preflop so if he has overpair such as AA, KK, JJ< hes reraising me me probably, even with a top pair top kicker.

I do think i should've raised the turn, since if im beat here by AA and KK im calling a blank river anyway, and to get value from weaker hands.

By the river, the only hand im beating is JJ. With no reads i cant assume villain would do all this with air or weak pairs with me calling with no draws on board.

AA, KK, any ten beat me, JJ was very likely but i decided to fold.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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ak does this (maybe even AQ. we dont know villian well), kk, qq, jj, 99, and maybe even 77. as played i usually fold this river, but i dont think a call is too out of line considering how weirdly we played the hand.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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ak does this (maybe even AQ. we dont know villian well), kk, qq, jj, 99, and maybe even 77. as played i usually fold this river, but i dont think a call is too out of line considering how weirdly we played the hand.

we played the hand "weirdly" from our perspective because we know what we have. from his perspective, what with their being very little to realistically draw at, our hand looks like a T or full house a good amount of the time, making him pretty unlikely to attempt a bluff or value bet of worse here IMO
 
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Threads13

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I tend to 3-bet QQ but I don't think it is an absolute must. It depends on stack sizes.
 
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