$100nl KK, line on flop?

Jagsti

Jagsti

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Ok this is a fairly straight forward type of hand. Not long at the table, and I only have stats on villain - no reads. At the time he was something like 14/10 nitty.

So pre flop I call his 4 bet to peel off a flop and see if an ace hits. Flop is ok for me. Now my line here, well if I bet I scare off his AJ+ range unless he's suited and caught a draw. Is checking here the best option to get his chips or is it too dangerous? Interested to see how you would play this!

party poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $110.34
UTG: $109.02
MP: $109.11
CO: $98.50
BTN: $100.06
Hero (SB): $133.03

Pre-Flop: K
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K
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dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, MP raises to $4, CO folds, BTN calls $4, Hero raises to $17, BB folds, MP raises to $34, BTN folds, Hero calls $17

Flop: ($73) 8
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2
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4
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(2 Players)
Hero checks
 
zachvac

zachvac

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I would have re-raised preflop. I don't see AJ re-raising preflop, maybe AK. AK gladly checks behind to see another card (although a K is jackpot for you), while AA still stacks you. The great thing is that if he has QQ or JJ he thinks his hand is good. As played, initially I thought you have to bet this, but now that I think about it a JJ or QQ hand now thinks it's good (you only flat called their raise PF and now check the flop) and has to bet it with 2 or 3 overs. AA stacks you either way, and Ax you're giving a free card to draw to an A. I think the amount of times your opponents are on highish pocket pairs makes this a check. We're really not that worried about the flush draw, just the fact that it may scare our opponent into not paying us off. If they pushed preflop with AKc, well that's just how it goes, but with all that action preflop you have to assume AJ-AK or JJ-AA. A bet would not be bad here, but I think the check is fine just because of the amount you'll get from the JJ and QQ hands.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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I think AK will cb this flop all day long. Your right about AJ, I don't think this villain would 4 bet me pf with AJ. I think his range is probably AQ+ JJ+, even though I only have a limited amount of hands with him. I doubt he has a set here, so really the flop chk is all about getting value from his range that I have crushed. Yes he might have AA, then he gets my stack.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Bet. The money in the pot is close to the amount of his remaining stack. If he has JJ/QQ he calling or pushing anyway. If he has AK clubs he may check for a free card (he's got to think you're on a big pair). No time to get cute IMO, 2/3 pot bet.
 
ChuckTs

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As played this should be a ch-r all in almost always. He's rarely going to check behind after the pf action, and your hand is way ahead of his range. As was mentioned, we scare off AK/AQ/other UI overcard hands, and give the smaller pairs a chance to get away from their hand.

Just ch-raise all in; the pot's huge and he's committed with just about his whole range.

I get it in pf by the way - waiting for a non-ace flop is just silly.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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I have a sneaky suspicion that villian is most likely holding AA/QQ even possible,(though unlikely) KK and without betting the flop how will you know how strong villian is.
But as it has been played, without seeing the results my guess is that villian pushed all-in on this flop and you had a hard decision to make and if you fold, then it was a great read on your part, and if you called and he flipped over AA what choice did you really have.
IMO his betting preflop tells me he had a very strong hand, probably in the top 3.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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I have a sneaky suspicion that villian is most likely holding AA/QQ even possible,(though unlikely) KK and without betting the flop how will you know how strong villian is.
But as it has been played, without seeing the results my guess is that villian pushed all-in on this flop and you had a hard decision to make and if you fold, then it was a great read on your part, and if you called and he flipped over AA what choice did you really have.
IMO his betting preflop tells me he had a very strong hand, probably in the top 3.

I need to pay more attention to bet sizes. He raised standard 4x preflop, you made quite a sizable re-raise and he raised just over a minraise. This screams "I'm willing to stack preflop". I don't know if you he's the type to do that with AK or not, and I've even seen some people stack with as weak as JJ preflop before. That said, unless he is one of the tightest people in the world, we can hardly put him on AA exactly. I still say check here (as you did). If he raises you re-raise and if he checks and a non-club non-A comes on the turn you lead out.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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What are we accomplishing by checking here? We're obviously willing to get our stack in the middle and usually the best way to accomplish this is to bet. If he folds to our bet he likely wasn't going to bet at us anyway and we've avoided giving the free card that could beat us. Also I agree that given the preflop betting and our stats on the villain he likely show us AA/QQ more often than AK/AQ.
 
ChuckTs

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What are we accomplishing by checking here?

Getting him to c-bet hands he would either fold to a flop bet, or call a flop bet and give up on the turn UI (AK/AQ/JJ-).

We're obviously willing to get our stack in the middle and usually the best way to accomplish this is to bet. If he folds to our bet he likely wasn't going to bet at us anyway and we've avoided giving the free card that could beat us.

Look at the stack sizes relative to the pot - there's no way the money's not getting in if he bets this flop. He'd just be too committed.

Giving a free card isn't an issue either since he's almost always got a med-big pair (~JJ+, maybe worse) or overcards (AK, maybe AQ), and is c-betting all those hands. Really, what hands do you see 4-betting pf then not betting this flop (aside from AA as a trap)?
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I get it all in PF.

As played I just shove the flop.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Getting him to c-bet hands he would either fold to a flop bet, or call a flop bet and give up on the turn UI (AK/AQ/JJ-).



Look at the stack sizes relative to the pot - there's no way the money's not getting in if he bets this flop. He'd just be too committed.

Giving a free card isn't an issue either since he's almost always got a med-big pair (~JJ+, maybe worse) or overcards (AK, maybe AQ), and is c-betting all those hands. Really, what hands do you see 4-betting pf then not betting this flop (aside from AA as a trap)?

With the preflop action if I held say AK/AQ offsuit and it was checked to me here I would check behind all but the most passive opponent. The preflop betting screams big pair/AK for both players and I would take the free card.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well that's because you're a thinking player whereas the average online player isn't.

A thinking player probably wouldn't 4-bet AK/AQ/JJ/TT here and thus commit themselves to trying to c-bet here to buy this massive pot. As played, this guy obviously values his hand a lot and will c-bet most/all of the time imo.

The point is that by betting, we rarely if ever get those overcards to shove (unless he's got AKc/AQc) whereas by checking we induce a c-bet from them, however unlikely they might be to c-bet them. The other hands are getting it in regardless. If he's got a legitimately solid hand like QQ+ then he's almost never folding this flop. If he's bad enough to 4-bet JJ- pf, then there's also a slim-to-none chance of him folding postflop.

There is the risk of getting outdrawn, but our opponent is drawing to at best 3 outs for the ace with a backdoor flush draw, and if they've got the overs + FD, they're always getting it in on the flop. In other words the value we get from seeing those hands c-bet is greater than the value we'd lose if we were to get outdrawn. Also, we're never paying off an ace turn.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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"Well that's because you're a thinking player"
Sometimes I wonder about this.

Maybe you're right on this one Chuck (not saying you're usually wrong). Maybe I'm losing value on these type hands by betting and having my opponent fold. I'll give it a try some time.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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"Well that's because you're a thinking player"
Sometimes I wonder about this.

Maybe you're right on this one Chuck (not saying you're usually wrong). Maybe I'm losing value on these type hands by betting and having my opponent fold. I'll give it a try some time.

This is one of the reasons I called the 4bet pf. If I push instead of calling, he folds anything except AA/KK here imo. I feel this is just sooo predictable. By calling I add a little deception. So the flop my only option here is to trap a worse hand than mine by letting him cb this flop. If I lead, I may well have just pushed pf b/c that would have had the same result, he folds anything worse that AA/KK. Ok he may call with QQ but thats debatable.

So anyways here's the result of the hand, not that it really matters, b/c I got what I wanted from the hand, apart from the result obv :rolleyes:.

I just feel that playing it this way brings an added element to my game. There's certainly an argument for pushing a worse hand out p/f and leading the flop to fold worse hands that may draw out on you, but i dunno, Its something I have been trying out lately. Maybe I should go with the standard TAG abc way of playing it.

Party Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $110.34
UTG: $109.02
MP: $109.11
CO: $98.50
BTN: $100.06
Hero (SB): $133.03

Pre-Flop: K
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K
spadenormal.gif
dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, MP raises to $4, CO folds, BTN calls $4, Hero raises to $17, BB folds, MP raises to $34, BTN folds, Hero calls $17

Flop: ($73) 8
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2
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4
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(2 Players)
Hero checks, MP bets $40, Hero raises to $99.03 and is All-In, MP calls $35.11 and is All-In

Turn: ($223.22) A
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(2 Players - 1 is All-In)


River: ($223.22) A
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(2 Players - 1 is All-In)


Results: $223.22 Pot ($3 Rake)
MP showed Q
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A
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(three of a kind, Aces) and WON $220.22 (+$111.11 NET)

Hero showed K
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K
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(two pairs, Aces and Kings) and LOST (-$109.11 NET)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Ouch.

See betting here would have saved you money :) . Just kidding, I guess you made the right play and just got unlucky.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Ouch.

See betting here would have saved you money :) . Just kidding, I guess you made the right play and just got unlucky.

That's exactly what I thought to myself after the pot, "I should of bet", but you know, I'm kinda happy the way I played it, I got what I wanted on the flop, just not the result :rolleyes:.
 
B

Bentheman87

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Look how big the pot is going to the flop, you do not want to give a free card here. Just bet to take the pot down. One of the preconditions for slowplaying is the pot should be small if its large its better to win it right away. When the pot is this large you don't want to even give a freecard even if the other guy has only two outs.
 
blankoblanco

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When the pot is this large you don't want to even give a freecard even if the other guy has only two outs.

this is just downright wrong. it's completely situational. against many players your $ expectation will be much better when you give them a chance to bluff at or make a c-bet at a pot, and more than makes up for the times they check behind and hit a 2 outer. poker is about winning money, not the number of pots you "take down"

also good to know that if you ever check in a large pot, it means you don't have a big hand. that's not exploitable at all...
 
B

Bentheman87

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"this is just downright wrong. it's completely situational. against many players your $ expectation will be much better when you give them a chance to bluff at or make a c-bet at a pot, and more than makes up for the times they check behind and hit a 2 outer. poker is about winning money, not the number of pots you "take down"

also good to know that if you ever check in a large pot, it means you don't have a big hand. that's not exploitable at all..."

Ok...you have about $100ish pot is $73. You should be satisfied with what's in there already and just take the pot down. The reason of slowplaying is to use deception to try to win bets later, but it's obvious to him that you have a big hand (given all the preflop raising) so checking him isn't going to fool him. odds against making trips on the turn if he has a PP are 23:1, but if you give him a free card you're giving him infinite odds.
 
B

Bentheman87

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And combo it's not like we flopped top set or something here. I don't think we're quite strong enough here to give a free card, there's a straight draw, flush draw, gutshot straight draw, 2 outer (if he has a PP), and if he has ace - x he has 3 outs.

And combo weren't you the guy who was saying it's bad to slowplay the nuts they won't expect you to fastplay in the "how do you play the nuts?" thread? So you're saying it's better to slowplay KK here when the pot is almost the size of our current stack? Wow...you've got it completely backwards.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Combu's right, go take a look at some wa/wb threads for a more in-depth analysis of why it's better to do so.

Put simply, the value we gain by luring in those hands that would fold to a flop bet GREATLY outweighs the value we lose by letting him outdraw.
 
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Bentheman87

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When the pot is large it's much better to bet to win it right away. If the pot were smaller checking would make more sense because you are hoping to win more money in future betting rounds because of your earlier deception. You're not thinking about the money in the pot now, because it's not a lot of money (pretend the pot was $10), you're thinking about future bets in the hand. But when the pot is so large (this one is over $70) you should be thinking about the current pot not future betting round and you should try to win this pot instantly. So going all in on the flop is much better than checking.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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It's ridiculous that you're advocating betting/shoving here to protect against Ax, ben. Simple and plain.

Look, we're up against two groups of hands here:

AK/AQ: If we shove, they fold, we lose value. If we check, they almost always c-bet, we ch-r as Jagsti did, we gain value as we're more than a 4:1 favourite against AQ+.

A few points:

-They rarely if ever check behind AQ+ here if they're 4-betting it pf.
-When they do, they're drawing to at worst 3 outs, at best 12 outs (one combo out of the 28 combos; [Ac][Qc])
-When an ace drops on the turn, we're not going to pay him off

Pairs: Checking invites all pairs to shove, set or no set, AA or no AA. Betting/shoving does nothing but give the worse pairs a chance to get out of the way.

Regarding the small pots vs big pots, we should be BETTING in small pots to BUILD the pot. Slowplaying a monster in a small pot is terrible.
 
OzExorcist

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Ok...you have about $100ish pot is $73. You should be satisfied with what's in there already

You've lost me on this one: $73 is 'enough' when there's potentially another $70-odd in it for you?
 
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Bentheman87

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Well I just think when the pot is so big it's best not to fool, just push all in. You don't know what this guy has and you don't know for sure if he's going to continuation bet. It's possible he was making a play preflop and now he has a gutshot straight draw or open ended straight draw or flush draw. And if you push he'll probably call with QQ JJ 10 10 or 99 anyway.
 
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