$10 NLHE Full Ring: Hit two pair on the flop against 33/0

[orangepeeleo]

Totally got beat by about 5 people lol

 

[Cafeman]

OK, here's what I think you should do... go down in stakes and

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Playing SS with stats of 6/6 is playing SS badly anyway.

As it stands now, there are 3 main types of actual SS (the ~20bb variety)

The “nittynitty”: This is the 5/5, 4/4, 5/4 type that is most likely following a simple hand chart. The last time I drew up a SS chart without any variety it came out to 6/5.7, and that was pure robotic SS-ing. This player type doesn't think and most certainly doesn't use any sort of variation in play. They look at their cards and go “ok, I have this position, there are this many limpers, my chart says to do this” and they do it. These players are amaaaaaaaaaaazing to have on our left as we can powerhouse their blinds every single orbit and have an insane ROI/steal

Why they suck for us? It really only sucks when they are on our right. They really don't light steal, so they just take up space and we can really never win an easy pot against them. They also plague tables, and lots of tables, because their strategy is so simple (basic FPP strategy really) and they play for long hours.

The “pro”: This is the good kind of SS'r. They tend to run stats like 7/7, 9/8, and almost never have a vpip of 10 or higher, and almost never have a vpip/pfr gap of more than 1. They have a bassline of actions (what hands to shove v a raise from every position, hands to squeeze with over how many callers, etc), but they also understand variation. They will sometimes light steal, they will also utilize SC's to their advantage. They make you call them a bit wider, which may get you tilty when you run into their top side a few times.

I was trying to be type 2 rather than type 1

If you were SS at my tables with those stats I would not look to avoid you. In fact I would actively seek you out and get every seat I could where you would be sitting to my left. You're free money at 6/6.

Yes, I've read the CotW about exploiting SS players

But do what you want, already been told my advice isnt worth shit on here so ignore me if you please : )

Your advice has certainly helped me in the past, because your posts made me aware of CotW, so thanks for that.

Incidentally I am now trying 5nl, following a comment somewhere on this forum about 10nl being nits waiting for their next cooler...

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I feel that I need to address this, WVHillbilly, because although you are extremely highly regarded in this household and your opinion is very much respected, your views on SSers are well known and this line of comments effectively means that there might be no point in me asking for hand analysis at this forum in future, and that makes me very, very sad.

I intend to play SS at cash games until I feel comfortable playing full stacked. This might take a month or it might take a year, I don't know. PEOPLE MAKING SNOTTY COMMENTS ABOUT ME PLAYING SS WILL NOT CHANGE THE TIME WHEN THAT TRANSITION WILL HAPPEN, but they might make me feel unable to ask for hand analysis here, for example, which would be a pity.

I'm not stupid, I'm fully aware of why SSers are so disliked, I know the arguments for and against, but at the level of playing skill I'm currently at it's something that I want to do.

Although there are some extremely good and successful SSers, two obvious examples being *split* and BSSRulez, I accept that most SSers are poor players. I also comfortably fit into that category

It allows me to play with stats of about 6/6 while I adjust to cash tables from having been a tournament player, and try to lose some of the bad habits that I have picked up during that time as a tournament player. Hopefully playing SS won't give me too many new bad habits

Anyway, I'd be grateful if you guys could give me a break and get off my back - please!

Again, many thanks again to all those that have given CONSTRUCTIVE advice WVHillbilly is awesome

1. The whole reason to play SS is to play a wider range. Your playing 6/6 your range is 88+ AQ+

Think this though. Lets say you play AA and only AA, is it better to do this with 50bb or 100bb? Lets widen your range to KK+ is it better to have 50bb or 100bb? Lets keep widening QQ+ .. QQ+ AK .... JJ+AK

When your range is comprised of only value hands it dosent make any sense to sit with less than a full buyin.

So the reason to play SS is to play a much much wider range, but thats not what you are doing.

2. You are playing like a NIT. It dosent work. FX spent many many months grinding away trying to prove everyone wrong. He didnt. His postflop skills never developed. He relied on bad players not realizing he hadnt played a hand in 35 orbits and stacking off against his KK+

How exactly is that developing any form of skill?

3.) You are paying an obscene amount of rake. You need to get more value with your big hands to offset this rake.

Playing as a 50bb 6/6 is just wrong. It dosent make any sense. Your better option is to drop down stakes and learn to feel comfortable playing a more Taggy style.

You have said in your posts and shown in your HH that if you make a hand, you shove. How exactly is this helping your transition? How are you learning skills that transition over to playing deeper?

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

1. The whole reason to play SS is to play a wider range. Your playing 6/6 your range is 88+ AQ+

I can believe *split* or I can believe you. He says that "pro" SS players never have a VP of more than 10, see quote in post before yours. I also linked to the stats of a guy that has made millions from SS play.

You have said in your posts and shown in your HH that if you make a hand, you shove. How exactly is this helping your transition? How are you learning skills that transition over to playing deeper?

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-game-hand-analysis-50/10-nlhe-full-ring-hit-two-202291/

Did I shove?

You need to work on playing the turn and river because you're a tourney donk and tourney donks suck on the turn and river. Since you already know how to play 20-40 BB stacks, what's the point? Just play tourneys, where at least you won't be outstacked by everyone else at the table.

Probably the best advice in this thread

Incidentally, saying "Stop short stacking. You're making baby Jesus cry." is NOT constructive advice, whereas " Drop down in stakes and play full stacked until you get comfortable (and better)." probably is...

3.) You are paying an obscene amount of rake. You need to get more value with your big hands to offset this rake.

That's a good point which I hadn't considered previously, so thanks for that

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I can believe *split* or I can believe you. He says that "pro" SS players never have a VP of more than 10, see quote in post before yours.

He isnt advocating that they are any good, just this is the way they play. Its in an artical he wrote about how to exploit them and it isnt difficult is it? He even puts the word pro in quote marks "pro" to highlight the joke.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

PEOPLE MAKING SNOTTY COMMENTS ABOUT ME PLAYING SS WILL NOT CHANGE THE TIME WHEN THAT TRANSITION WILL HAPPEN

It dosent matter to me if you follow my advice or not.

You cant beat 2NL / 5NL

I can

I'm trying to help you.

Your the one being snotty by disregarding advice.

Why would I lie?

Why would I take the time to deceive you in any way?

You have to accept that if there is any skill in poker, then it follows that there is both a correct and incorrect strategy. Everything cant be correct in a game of skill. Yet even after people take the time to explain to you why something is wrong, you still disagree.

 

[acky100]

Im pretty sure splits post or another post i read on SSing stated there was literally NO good shortstackers up until like 200nl either, so you're probably just on the road to being another breakeven player making a small amount from rakeback if you're lucky, but keeping average regulars afloat from stealing your blinds.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

He isnt advocating that they are any good, just this is the way they play. Its in an artical he wrote about how to exploit them and it isnt difficult is it? He even puts the word pro in quote marks "pro" to highlight the joke.

He is a short-stacker himself. How about the Russian SS guy whose stats I gave a link to?

Yet even after people take the time to explain to you why something is wrong, you still disagree.

I was asking why your comment seems to fundamentally contradict what *split* (and various others in that CotW thread) have said. This is a discussion forum, I'm discussing. I'm not some nodding donkey that sees a comment by Stu Ungar and thinks "Wow, this guy is a winning player so everything he says must be pure gold" and then humbly bows, takes my hat off and says "thank you, sir". I compare it to other things that I have read and try to make some coherent sense out of it all, and then try to relate it to my current situation.

Also I am trying to work out how practical it is for me to move down in stakes, which is as a direct result of some of the advice in this thread. I am actually very grateful to people that give constructive advice, and naturally less receptive to people that address me as if I'm completely stupid.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

He is a short-stacker himself. How about the Russian SS guy whose stats I gave a link to?

I was asking why your comment seems to fundamentally contradict what *split* (and various others in that CotW thread) have said. T

*Split* on shortstackers

Shortstackers. I hear more complaining about shortstackers than anything else in the poker world. Why? Because these people have found a mathematical loophole made possible by the current minimum buy-ins on poker sites. But why the hate? Apparently there is a loophole, why would one hate someone for doing something they could just as easily do themselves? Why doesn't everyone tick that “Buy in for the minimum” button as they sit down at their table? Why doesn't everyone use a simple hand chart, with certain stipulations, and grind 24 tables?

The answer is simple, and actually is the same as that old adage “you get out what you put in”. If you are using very minimal brain power, if you are simply following a hand chart, if you are mindlessly pressing buttons, then you have put in very little and in return, will make very little. A shortstackers winrate is severely capped given the simplicity of the strategy.

reference

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/7...week-21-shortstacks-path-exploitation-515357/

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Post 18 of that same thread:

I have really only come across two good short stackers at FTP at the micros, and they are both SS NL400 right now. There are a few of the nitty-nittys that make a decent profit

Post 47:

i suppose no1 has yet found it ironic that a shortstacker wrote this article, lol

Post 50

i SS once in awhile...really just as a mixup, bonus burner, and/or to re-think about their ranges

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Im not even going to continue.

Really, what is the point?

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Post 78 of that thread:

the longer you guys think that shorties are non-thinking retardos, the longer you will underestimate them

 

[Nathan Williams]

Who is *split* and what is his screenname? The other guy you linked has been breakeven for two years. Millions?

I would have to agree with the others. Your best bet is going to be to move down, play fullstacked and open up your game. This will help you far more in the longrun.

I am by no means hating on shortstacking. I actually know a couple of them who have some decent success but they play in the CAP games with 20bb and mass table it. I am pretty sure that those are the games you want to play in if shortstacking is your thing.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

Who is *split* and what is his screenname? The other guy you linked has been breakeven for two years. Millions?

If you follow the link that Stu gave a couple of posts back, *split* wrote that CotW on exploiting shortstackers. He's a bit of a hero of mine at the moment, now that zachvac has fallen off his pedestal

That CotW is from 2009, and if I'm reading the graph properly that I linked to the Russian guy was about $9m up by 2009?

I would have to agree with the others. Your best bet is going to be to move down, play fullstacked and open up your game. This will help you far more in the longrun.

I would probably do that when I have a big enough BR to take cash games seriously, at the moment I'm just dabbling to see whether I enjoy them as much as tournies or whether I just end up being totally pwned (which I probably will; as baudib said, my post-flop play is very weak).

I am by no means hating on shortstacking. I actually know a couple of them who have some decent success but they play in the CAP games with 20bb and mass table it. I am pretty sure that those are the games you want to play in if shortstacking is your thing.

I noticed that PS have CAP as an option in the cash games filter, but I'm not sure what it means as I haven't heard of them before

 

[Nathan Williams]

If you follow the link that Stu gave a couple of posts back, *split* wrote that CotW on exploiting shortstackers. He's a bit of a hero of mine at the moment, now that zachvac has fallen off his pedestal

That CotW is from 2009, and if I'm reading the graph properly that I linked to the Russian guy was about $9m up by 2009?

I would probably do that when I have a big enough BR to take cash games seriously, at the moment I'm just dabbling to see whether I enjoy them as much as tournies or whether I just end up being totally pwned (which I probably will; as baudib said, my post-flop play is very weak).

I noticed that PS have CAP as an option in the cash games filter, but I'm not sure what it means as I haven't heard of them before

Oh that guy from 2+2. Ya he had some good free videos back in the day but he never actually played as a short stack in them if I recall correctly. I have no idea if he stills plays poker or what his results are like. I'd check on that first before anything

I don't think there are any shortstackers making millions haha. With the Russian guy I see 23k made before rakeback. I think Wizard of Ahhhs or something like that is the greatest SS'er ever, you might want to check on him.

And ya, unfortunately for you I don't think the CAP games begin on Stars until NL50. It's a $10 buyin though (20bb). I'm not sure what the bankroll requirements are like for SS but that is a low amount at least.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

And ya, unfortunately for you I don't think the CAP games begin on Stars until NL50. It's a $10 buyin though (20bb). I'm not sure what the bankroll requirements are like for SS but that is a low amount at least.

Well I don't think I'm ready for 50NL just yet

I tried a couple of 1/2NL and 2/5NL tables in the last couple of hours, and they felt totally different to the 5/10NL tables that I was at before. The 1/2 reminds me of the early stages of a freeroll, when all the maniacs are still in. The 2/5 seems more like typical microstakes ABC poker to me.

I could be wrong though - I often am...

Here's an example of one of the 1/2 hands:

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $1.84
BB Hero: $1.60
UTG: $2.14
UTG+1: $2.87
MP: $0.98
MP+1: $0.77
MP+2: $2
CO: $1.46
BTN: $0.71

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB and dealt
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 folds, MP calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO calls $0.02, BTN raises to $0.08, SB folds, Hero calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06, MP calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.41) (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.29, BTN raises to $0.63 (All-in), Hero folds, 2 folds, CO calls $0.34

Turn: ($1.67) (2 players)

River: ($1.67) (2 players)

Final Pot: $1.67

Showdown:
CO shows (a pair of jacks)
BTN shows (a pair of aces)
Outcome: BTN wins $1.59

So he shoved with AK against two opponents on a flop of JT5, which according to my calculations gives him ace high, SD and BDFD.

 

[WVHillbilly]

Here's an example of one of the 1/2 hands:

Poker Stars - $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $1.84
BB Hero: $1.60
UTG: $2.14
UTG+1: $2.87
MP: $0.98
MP+1: $0.77
MP+2: $2
CO: $1.46
BTN: $0.71

Pre-flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB and dealt
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 folds, MP calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO calls $0.02, BTN raises to $0.08, SB folds, Hero calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06, MP calls $0.06, CO calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.41) (5 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.29, BTN raises to $0.63 (All-in), Hero folds, 2 folds, CO calls $0.34

Turn: ($1.67) (2 players)

River: ($1.67) (2 players)

Final Pot: $1.67

Showdown:
CO shows (a pair of jacks)
BTN shows (a pair of aces)
Outcome: BTN wins $1.59

So he shoved with AK against two opponents on a flop of JT5, which according to my calculations gives him ace high, SD and BDFD.

You still don't have a 100bb stack. Why?

3bet or fold preflop.

BTN stacking there seems standard considering the size of the pot relative to his stack.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

You still don't have a 100bb stack. Why?

I just bought in for the amount that it came up with. I think you're forgetting how inexperienced I am at cash games.

BTN stacking there seems standard considering the size of the pot relative to his stack.

So it's +EV to go all in with 3 people in the pot when you've missed and you have a drawing hand?

 

[WVHillbilly]

I just bought in for the amount that it came up with. I think you're forgetting how inexperienced I am at cash games.So it's +EV to go all in with 3 people in the pot when you've missed and you have a drawing hand?

Well the BTN has to win something like 40% of the time to BE if CO is the only one that calls (less if you or the other guy come along). If we give the CO a tight range of TP/55/a handful of FDs/ a couple of str8 draws BTN has 33% equity. Throw in the fact that a 3/4 stack 2nl player can conceivably bet / fold to the shove (would be horrible but it def. happens) AND that the BTN is undoubtedly a horrible player himself (stack size and raise size preflop indicate that) and you have a standard shove with AKo.

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

OK, fair enough. When I see somebody doing that in a tournament I tend to think that they're an idiot, but maybe they're light years ahead of me in terms of pot odds and general poker theory

Also I suppose that in cash games you can just reload...

 

[darkassassin89]

It dosent matter to me if you follow my advice or not.

You cant beat 2NL / 5NL

I can

I'm trying to help you.

Your the one being snotty by disregarding advice.

Why would I lie?

Why would I take the time to deceive you in any way?

You have to accept that if there is any skill in poker, then it follows that there is both a correct and incorrect strategy. Everything cant be correct in a game of skill. Yet even after people take the time to explain to you why something is wrong, you still disagree.

Teach me your ways Unger!!!

 

[F4STFORW4RD]

But do you have the 'unger that is needed to succeed, my child?

 

[darkassassin89]

Yesh

 

[baudib1]

Given stack sizes, that AK shove is totally standard, including in a tourney.