$10 NLHE Full Ring: Hit two pair on the flop against 33/0

darkassassin89

darkassassin89

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Shove on the flop? Pre flop yes, but this hand was not pre flop....
 
jbbb

jbbb

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lol @ this thread. BTW the 99 hand was playing awfully. And the AK shove is 100% the right thing to do seeing as your usually ahead here anyway. Also AK isn't a 'drawing hand'.
 
F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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Also AK isn't a 'drawing hand'.
My understanding is that AK and AQ, for example, are drawing hands because they generally need to hit something to win. 22 is a made hand, which is why it is favourite to beat AK. That's how it was explained to me anyway, but please feel free to correct me, I am here to learn :)

-------- equity ---- win ---- tie ----- pots won - pots tied
Hand 0: 46.960% - 46.67% - 00.29% - 799119 - 4973.00 { AcKd }
Hand 1: 53.040% - 52.75% - 00.29% - 903239 - 4973.00 { 2h2s }
 
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baudib1

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Is JTs a made hand, because it is a favorite to beat 22.



equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.979% 53.28% 00.70% 912248 12043.50 { JsTs }
Hand 1: 46.021% 45.32% 00.70% 775969 12043.50 { 2d2h }


So if JTs is a favorite over 22, and 22 is a favorite over AK, AK must really suck, right?
 
TylerN

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its not about being a "drawing hand". its about equity vs a certain hand or ranges. d/l pokerstove and mess around with it
 
F4STFORW4RD

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Is JTs a made hand, because it is a favorite to beat 22.



equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.979% 53.28% 00.70% 912248 12043.50 { JsTs }
Hand 1: 46.021% 45.32% 00.70% 775969 12043.50 { 2d2h }


So if JTs is a favorite over 22, and 22 is a favorite over AK, AK must really suck, right?
That's not really a very helpful comment. I'm asking whether AK is a made hand or not. I was told that pocket pairs are made hands, and that connectors are drawing hands. If this is incorrect I would like somebody to explain why.
 
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baudib1

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Concepts such as "made hand" or "drawing hand" are fish terms that give them an excuse to overplay small pocket pairs or to misplay AK.

The fact that AK is an underdog vs. 22 is irrelevant because no one's range is 22 and there's not many times you get all-in preflop 22 vs. AK. There are other streets to play and 22 is not going to be profitable calling down 3 streets unimproved, because someone's range is not AK, either.

AK is a better hand than 22 by a large margin. There is no realistic range against which you'd rather have 22 than AK.

vs. 100%

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 50.334% 49.39% 00.95% 6215338932 119416020.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 49.666% 48.72% 00.95% 6131263428 119416020.00 { random }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 65.753% 64.91% 00.84% 33398540 433980.50 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 34.247% 33.40% 00.84% 17187549 433980.50 { random }

vs. pocket pairs

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 18.812% 17.35% 01.46% 809385 68249.50 { 22 }
Hand 1: 81.188% 79.73% 01.46% 3719466 68249.50 { 22-AA }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.463% 43.21% 00.25% 4921774 28375.50 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 56.537% 56.29% 00.25% 6410881 28375.50 { 22-AA }

vs. top 5 %
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.416% 32.10% 00.31% 1705406 16586.50 { 22 }
Hand 1: 67.584% 67.27% 00.31% 3573537 16586.50 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 47.137% 37.84% 09.29% 1946478 477942.50 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 52.863% 43.57% 09.29% 2240949 477942.50 { 99+, AJs+, KQs, AKo }

vs. top 10%
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.114% 39.76% 00.36% 1856621 16623.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 59.886% 59.53% 00.36% 2779992 16623.00 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.275% 53.21% 05.07% 2795469 266140.50 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 41.725% 36.66% 05.07% 1926003 266140.50 { 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }

vs. top 20%
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.748% 43.31% 00.44% 751315 7574.00 { 22 }
Hand 1: 56.252% 55.82% 00.44% 968206 7574.00 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 62.530% 59.76% 02.77% 2512212 116486.00 { AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 37.470% 34.70% 02.77% 1458691 116486.00 { 66+, A4s+, K8s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
 
F4STFORW4RD

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Great answer, thanks :)

I could well be wrong here - I often am - but I was under the impression that I heard about it in the first poker book that I ever read, a book called Super System by Doyle Brunson. I thought that he said something along the lines of this:

A lot of people overvalue AK in cash games, and that's why it's called "walking home to Houston". Because it's a drawing hand there are some situations in which I would actually prefer to have 22, which is a made hand.

FWIW I didn't find it particularly useful as a first book, mainly because the LAG style that he suggested didn't work very well online, because it required some post-flop skills for it to be an effective strategy. Phil Gordon's Little Green Book gave me a much better grounding.

However, I still don't really think of Doyle Brunson as a fish...
 
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baudib1

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Super System was groundbreaking at the time but is hopelessly outdated. Doyle himself had to reinvent himself and adapt as the book basically gave everyone an instruction guide on how to beat him.

I actually feel that Gordon's books are a pretty good starting point for new players but he mostly focuses on tournament play.
 
jbbb

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Great answer baudib. :)

As for supersystem, there are a lot better books out there now you should consider reading IMO. I also really like SSNLHE by Ed Miller. Once you've read some basic books give this a read if you play a lot of 6max cash.
 
F4STFORW4RD

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Great answer baudib. :)

As for supersystem, there are a lot better books out there now you should consider reading IMO. I also really like SSNLHE by Ed Miller. Once you've read some basic books give this a read if you play a lot of 6max cash.
I'm reading an Ed Miller book at the moment called "Getting Started in Hold'Em". Plenty of example hands to help to reinforce the points that he's making.
 
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