Hi Everybody,

I could use some advice here.

It is generalized but at the same time important for me to understand.
As you know by now, I was playing in a 10NL, 6 max cash game.

Im on the button and Im dealt J7 off suit. Usually I toss these cards into the muck however, on this particular hand I get 3 limpers in front of me-the players at this table have been very passive all session..

Anyway what I'd like to know is "Should I call here or in other words am I getting the right odds to call" ??

Thanks.

J7 off suit in a multi way limped pot can get you into all kinds of non nutted trouble. I would fold that.

Opening that hand from the button is another matter.

No, J7o is too weak to play multiway. When there multiple callers or the pot is likely to go multiway, you want to have hands to make the nuts. That means suited Ax to make the nut flush, suited connectors to flop combo draws and make straights, and pocket pairs to make a set. Just because there are more callers, it doesn't mean you can call lighter because you will win less often.

Originally Posted by beginnerbot

No, J7o is too weak to play multiway. When there multiple callers or the pot is likely to go multiway, you want to have hands to make the nuts. That means suited Ax to make the nut flush, suited connectors to flop combo draws and make straights, and pocket pairs to make a set. Just because there are more callers, it doesn't mean you can call lighter because you will win less often.

Thanks for your feedback BB

Originally Posted by Sidetracked

J7 off suit in a multi way limped pot can get you into all kinds of non nutted trouble. I would fold that.

Opening that hand from the button is another matter.

Hi Sidetracked,
What do you mean by "Opening that hand from the button is another matter" ?

Originally Posted by beginnerbot

Just because there are more callers, it doesn't mean you can call lighter because you will win less often.

This is an excellent point. Even in televised games you sometimes hear commentators say something like "he is getting amazing odds", when someone makes a casual call from the blinds, after 4 other players entered the pot already. But this is really not the correct way to look at it. The more people are involved in a hand, the more people are fighting for the "dead money" in the form of antes and blinds. So you are actually getting a WORSE price not a better.

Multiway action tend to level equities between good and bad hands somewhat, but that does still not make it profitable to get involved with bad hands. The only hands, that really benefit from multiway action, are small pairs, because they tend to flop very hot or cold. Even suited connectors do not benefit from multiway action, which is another very common misconception.

Originally Posted by stil370

Hi Sidetracked,
What do you mean by "Opening that hand from the button is another matter" ?

I meant that if it folds to you on the button, and you have J7o, open raising there is fine.

Ranges get a lot wider when you're opening to steal the pot. That dynamic can change if the blinds are very aggressive, but if you're paying attention, you should get an idea of that dynamic after a few rounds of play.

J7 off is a medium combination that has some features. While you have the fourth nut for a flush, it does limit early openings a bit. Like for example J-J; AJo; KJs; QJo; that could be done from early positions. On the other hand the 7, eliminates some wider combinations like 7-8o; 9-7s; 7-6s and also blocks 3 combos of 7-7. In addition, the 7 as a kicker has a very poor protection, since by blocking several JXs the probabilities of isolating ourselves with lower scales such as T; 9; etc will be negative for us, because given the dynamics of the ranges that precede us in the position and the stake that is played, many times they will be disguised in the limpers ranges and in reality they will be medium pockets like 8-8; 9-9 blocking the equity at the top of our range (line J to 7). And when the kickers are lower than ours, most likely we will face scales greater than ours (Q; K; A), because they will compensate for their positional disadvantage.
For all this in my opinion J7 off is quite marginal from BTN. It is best used when faced with players who have low continuity of play postflop. But at a micro or low stake, it doesn't really make much effectiveness to search the fold equity against the limpers players.
Greetings.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

This is an excellent point. Even in televised games you sometimes hear commentators say something like "he is getting amazing odds", when someone makes a casual call from the blinds, after 4 other players entered the pot already. But this is really not the correct way to look at it. The more people are involved in a hand, the more people are fighting for the "dead money" in the form of antes and blinds. So you are actually getting a WORSE price not a better.

Multiway action tend to level equities between good and bad hands somewhat, but that does still not make it profitable to get involved with bad hands. The only hands, that really benefit from multiway action, are small pairs, because they tend to flop very hot or cold. Even suited connectors do not benefit from multiway action, which is another very common misconception.

Thanks you both for your feedback.
Fundiver you make an excellent point about watching poker and hearing the commentators say over and over that the button is getting good odds to call pre-flop in a hand such as this., I too have heard that over and over.
Its exactly why I posted this situational play here.

Originally Posted by Sidetracked

I meant that if it folds to you on the button, and you have J7o, open raising there is fine.

Ranges get a lot wider when you're opening to steal the pot. That dynamic can change if the blinds are very aggressive, but if you're paying attention, you should get an idea of that dynamic after a few rounds of play.

Thanks for the clarification Sidetracked. I get it.

Originally Posted by gustav197poker

J7 off is a medium combination that has some features. While you have the fourth nut for a flush, it does limit early openings a bit. Like for example J-J; AJo; KJs; QJo; that could be done from early positions. On the other hand the 7, eliminates some wider combinations like 7-8o; 9-7s; 7-6s and also blocks 3 combos of 7-7. In addition, the 7 as a kicker has a very poor protection, since by blocking several JXs the probabilities of isolating ourselves with lower scales such as T; 9; etc will be negative for us, because given the dynamics of the ranges that precede us in the position and the stake that is played, many times they will be disguised in the limpers ranges and in reality they will be medium pockets like 8-8; 9-9 blocking the equity at the top of our range (line J to 7). And when the kickers are lower than ours, most likely we will face scales greater than ours (Q; K; A), because they will compensate for their positional disadvantage.
For all this in my opinion J7 off is quite marginal from BTN. It is best used when faced with players who have low continuity of play postflop. But at a micro or low stake, it doesn't really make much effectiveness to search the fold equity against the limpers players.
Greetings.

Great analysis and then some Gustav.

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to share your thoughts and reasoning .

The people here at CC are awesome!

Usually, these guys who limps too much are bad players, many of them are just playing for fun just to see the cards and make a game. It`s usually better to be a little tighter with these kind of players.

Originally Posted by Viparida

Usually, these guys who limps too much are bad players, many of them are just playing for fun just to see the cards and make a game. It`s usually better to be a little tighter with these kind of players.

I agree Viparida,
Im really learning how to be patient and get a read on each of the players so I khow the best way to plan against them.
Poker is really such a game of depth.

It is a bad hand to call. Even if you flop a jack, there is a possibility that you may value town yourself when someone else has a better jack (reverse implied odds). Moreover you are not closing the action. Someone behind you may still raise and you will be forced to fold anyways. I think with J7o best move is to fold.

Originally Posted by stil370

Fundiver you make an excellent point about watching poker and hearing the commentators say over and over that the button is getting good odds to call pre-flop in a hand such as this., I too have heard that over and over. Its exactly why I posted this situational play here.

If the final table of a highroller tournament is streamed, you can be pretty sure, most if not all the participants are good players, and that they are doing their best to win. So watching these can be a great way to study. However if we talk about cash games, where people need to get invited to play, then it often becomes a mixture of poker and entertainment. Players come to promote their brand, and in return they are expected to put on a bit of a show. If they fail to do so, they might not be invited again.

In top of that there is a lot of old stuff around on for instance Youtube, most of it from before 2011, when online poker essentially shut down in the USA. And if you watch some of that, you also need to keep in mind, that poker has evolved a lot during the 10+ years, since it was recorded. So its best seen as pure entertainment and not as a way to learn how to play winning poker in 2020.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

If the final table of a highroller tournament is streamed, you can be pretty sure, most if not all the participants are good players, and that they are doing their best to win. So watching these can be a great way to study. However if we talk about cash games, where people need to get invited to play, then it often becomes a mixture of poker and entertainment. Players come to promote their brand, and in return they are expected to put on a bit of a show. If they fail to do so, they might not be invited again.

In top of that there is a lot of old stuff around on for instance Youtube, most of it from before 2011, when online poker essentially shut down in the USA. And if you watch some of that, you also need to keep in mind, that poker has evolved a lot during the 10+ years, since it was recorded. So its best seen as pure entertainment and not as a way to learn how to play winning poker in 2020.

Hi Fundiver,
Since Covid started back in the middle of march, I have probably studied my game more in the last 5 months than i had in the previous 10 years.
I appreciate the recommendations and the GUIDANCE.
Do you watch twitch and if you do is there anybody you reccommend who plays cash games there? I see alot of guys in tournaments on Twitch but im not sure if I have seen any cash players on there.
Do you play cash?

Originally Posted by arenaci

It is a bad hand to call. Even if you flop a jack, there is a possibility that you may value town yourself when someone else has a better jack (reverse implied odds). Moreover you are not closing the action. Someone behind you may still raise and you will be forced to fold anyways. I think with J7o best move is to fold.

Excellent arenaci,

You explained why its a bad call and also confirmed what others here have said. thank you.