$1/2 NL live game hand

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phatjose

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Live game near my house, $1/2 NL ring game. Most people at the table have between $100-$150 in front of them (max buy in was $300 but most people bought in around $100). Only going to involve the relevant people since there's no point in writing out that 6 people folded.

Villain 1 (chip leader) was playing smart up until he got into the chip lead. At which point he really loosened up and tried playing big stack bully a bit too much (I was down a little and ended up doubling up off him by taking advantage of this). Villain 2 was new to the table and only had sat for a couple of orbits, but initial read was pretty tight and slightly passive.


Hole cards:

SB (Hero) $210 - 9s 9c
BB (villain 1) $540 - XX
UTG +1 (villain 2) $160 - XX

UTG + 1 raises to $12 (standard raise for the table)
SB calls
BB calls

Pot: $36

Flop:

6d 9h 10d

SB (Hero): ?

Will post the results after some input. I am curious to see if others think I bet this hand correctly, or if I should have played it slightly differently.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I like leading out; we can possibly trap some dead money from the BB, and only pray that utg+1 has a hand big enough to raise you.

I'll lead for like $20.
 
J

joeeagles

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The good thing is that you hit a great hand, the bad thing is that you hit it on a draw heavy board and now you're first to act.

Ideally you should check this and let the UTG +1 player throw his c-bet in the pot. If the board weren't so draw heavy this would be the play that I'd suggest. If this pot were HU I'd still probably go in that direction (checking) and take a chance. Unfortunately though that isn't the case so I really really think you need to lead out here at cost that you might get 2 folds and waste a huge opportunity. Getting 2 folds might not be the worst thing though, because there are a lot of cards that can come on the turn and make this board ugly. Any 7 or 8 or heart put you in a tough spot, again because you're OOP and pot is 3-way. The way you describe villain 1 he could have anything so for sure you don't want to give any free cards. If he flat calls your bets and somehow outdraws you, more power to him, but just make sure he pays to see turn and river. Same for other villain.

As Chuck suggested, I'd lead out for $20 and see what happens. If you get raised its up to you, you can either shove (preferable) or wait to see what the turn brings. For sure though, if you lead out, lets say $20, and villain 1 raises, lets say to $50, and villain 2 calls the raise, I'd go for a shove because you'll likely get 2 calls building a huge pot, and even if you might be behind a made straight (1 of villains holding 78) your hand can still improve and be the winner.

I can't really be worrying about someone already having a straight because there is no way in hell you can get away from this flop (at least I couldn't). If that is the case, oh well, it's just a huge cooler. But anyway, without getting too much ahead, as far as the flop play is concerned, I really think you have to lead out here, and the $20 suggested by Chuck sounds good to me.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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c/r can be viable if you a) have the right image to represent a draw (it's a potentially good way to induce a shove over your raise.. stack sizes will be good for it) and b) you're pretty damn sure someone's going to bet. b is pretty key though, because getting this checked through suuucks

the surest and safest way is to lead out. the loose player is between you and the raiser, so hope that he comes along for the ride or maybe makes a play himself. i'd make it at least $24, if not $28. i think $20 is kinda small for such a super drawy board. if you get raised, just shove, because a million different turn cards kill your action or shut you down or just confuse you, and you're out of position. this is why playing draws fast is awesome. if players know you can play a draw this same way, they're much more likely to pay you off here
 
P

phatjose

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So the consensus seems to be to bet and lead out. That's what I was thinking as well. I saw the draw heavy board and figured that villain 1 could have been playing 78s and hit the straight, and AK-J/10s would definitely be in villain 2's range.

Hole cards:

SB (Hero) $210 - 9s 9c
BB (villain 1) $540 - XX
UTG +1 (villain 2) $160 - XX

UTG + 1 raises to $12 (standard raise for the table)
SB calls
BB calls

Pot: $36

Flop:

6d 9h 10d

SB (Hero): Bets $40
BB (Villain 1): Calls
UTG+1 (Villain 2): Calls

Pot: $156

Yes, I slightly overbet the pot, but I wanted to drive off any drawing hands by skewing the odds to make it not worth calling (figure 2:1 pot odds but only 3:1 chances at a flush or oesd). With both calling, I thought for sure I might be behind to Villain 1 since 78 definitely would be in his range. Villain 2 I figured was not on a draw, and instead put him on an over pair, doubtful 10s since he probably would have raised here.

Turn:

6d 9h 10d 6h

Hero: ?
 
Schatzdog

Schatzdog

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I think this is pretty read/opponent specific. I don't know how your game plays or the nature of your opponents, but at this point what do you think they put you on?

I think if you play this fast you could get value out of AA/KK/QQ on fourth and maybe fifth st, while a made straight might still call you down too. I'm tempted to lead out for around 2/3 the pot.

Checking isn't bad either. It has the benefits of looking like you've given up on the pot that could induce a bet from an overpair or straight, but then obvioulsy if you call you're not going to get great value on the river.

I prefer betting here.
 
J

joeeagles

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One of the best cards that could come and it likely puts you ahead for good, unless the small chance you get a disaster river like another T. Of course we can't worry about that, so our goal now is to make this pot as big as we possibly can.

On this turn we welcome all draws to hang in, so we don't want to outprice them. In the same time we can see that both players did call an overbet on the flop. Pretty much I'd think at least one of them is on a draw and as you said perhaps the other has an overpair. Pot is $156, and you have $158 left. The BB has you covered, UTG +1 has $108 left. I would bet around $65, hoping the BB calls. If he is on a draw he should call because he's getting about 3.5 to 1 and a decent amount of IO. I would expect UTG +1 to shove (or fold) rather than just calling, and if this happens you can shove on top of that and expect definitely to get called by BB, because he'd have to put $92 in a pot that would, at that point, be $486. Those are correct odds for a flush draw.

Another reason why I like the $65 bet is because, just in case they both flat call and don't reraise, it leaves you with only $92 and a $351 pot, and UTG +1 would have only $43 left. I'd expect at least him to call any river. For the BB it all depends on what the river card is. It could be a card that kills all action, or he might miss whatever draw he has, if indeed he has one, but you can't, for that reason, overbet the turn and risk to lose them by outpricing all draws.

IMO going for a c/r on this turn is a terrible move. Any draw would obviously check behind with only 1 card to come and pot being 3-way, and an overpair would also because most likely it would be looking to get to a showdown cheaply, particularly UTG +1, even if the board is draw heavy. Some overpairs in UTG +1 might shove (if it's a less expert player). A more savvy player with an overpair would, if checked into, bet/fold to a raise. But the stack size of UTG +1 is not deep enough for that type of play (bet/fold) so he'll likely check behind, also considering that your first impression of him is that he's tight and passive. The only time a check could be good is if you feel that 1 of the 2 villains will shove on that turn, but you can never be sure of that and if it doesn't happen you wasted a street and that, potentially, could jeopardize the whole outcome of this hand in terms of value you can get out of it. It's way too risky.
 
P

phatjose

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I ended up checking to lead out here. With the hyper aggressive nature of Villain 1, I figured he would do my betting for me and I could see what happens after that. I also figured that neither of them were on draws at this point, and both had hands that would warrant betting. That's exactly what happened. It actually turned out better than I hoped with Villain 2 coming over the top of him (which I was planning to do anyway).

Turn:

6d 9h 10d 6h

Hero: Checks
BB (Villain 1): Bets $40
UTG + 1 (Villain 2): Raises to $108 and is all in
Hero: ?

My only debate at this point is whether to shove or just flat call. Flat calling will almost certainly induce the call from Villain 1, while shoving *may* scare him off, although he should be still getting enough odds to call.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I like a call here; it may be somewhat see-through that you have a monster, but so will pushing, obviously. It looks like BB is interested in his hand, and he may stick a reraise in after you call, if not then he'll at least call a river value bet.

Looks like we've got a nice big pot comin our way.
 
lasvegaspokerchick

lasvegaspokerchick

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Chiming in late here, but I also like the idea of flat calling the turn. You want the BB to call you if he has a drawing hand as you are unlikely to be out drawn at this point. The only drawing hand that you might let in by flat calling that can hurt you is a lone 10 (then if a 10 comes on the river you will be hurting.) But I'm willing to risk that if I am you. Also, if you shove, the only hands likely to call you are hands that beat you. Speaking of which, at this point I would start to be just a teensy bit worried about pocket 10s.
 
P

phatjose

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Initially, I was clearly leaning toward flat calling here. I was also more than a little worried by someone having 10s at this point and having the 2nd best hand (which I would have to pay someone off with). However, my final decision was based completely on the read I had on Villain 1. As I said, he had been playing very loose ever since becoming the big stack, so I was almost positive he would call a shove. I didn't want to give him the opportunity to actually think about what was happening if I called, and then not being able to get any more money out of him.

Turn:

6d 9h 10d 6h

Hero: Checks
BB (Villain 1): Bets $40
UTG + 1 (Villain 2): Raises to $108 and is all in
Hero: Reraises to $158 and is all in
BB (Villain 1): Calls $110

Main Pot: $480
Side Pot: $100

UTG+1(Villain 2) shows AcAh
BB (Villain 1) shows Ad6c
Hero shows 9s 9c

I was more concerned about villain 2 having the 10s than I was villain 1, as I was almost positive I had him crushed and he was coming along for the ride either way. His call just reinforces my read on him. To be honest, I don't even remember the river card other than it was a blank and I took down the entire pot.
 
lasvegaspokerchick

lasvegaspokerchick

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Well done...any time you get the money in with the best hand and get everyone else to pay you off you have done your job. Nice day at the office.
 
V

viking999

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I'm a bit torn about the best decision on the turn.

The all-in seems best versus a bare flush draw or a flush and straight draw or a pair of 9s and a flush draw, because if they don't hit you won't get the rest on the river (and the odds on the all-in seem good enough for a call).

On the other hand, I think the all-in would scare away T8, T7, 98, or 97, but a call wouldn't. That's a bad turn card for those hands, so you have to maximize his odds.

Versus any hand with a 6, he's probably getting it all in if you go now or wait until the river.
 
dresturn2

dresturn2

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I would have done it generally the same way u played it
 
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