River Betting (Day 12 Course Discussion)

Originally Posted by Luvart

Finished Day #12.

River betting is one of the very fundamental and crucial concepts for winning poker. It really needs a lot of practice, countless failed river bets, and brutal patience till someone can claim that they've "mastered" this concept.

I also think that it's even more important for cash games.

My answer to today's quiz:

I would not put a bet here. 4way pot at the river, what worse hands could call a bet? An A10? An A5s? A KQ? Very difficult, bearing in mind that players limped preflop, so I think with that type of hands, at least one player would have made a raise pre. Also I don't think that there are many hands better than my hand, that would fold here. Definitely not any 9x hand, not the good Jx top pair hands, A8/K8 hands, especially if we make a small blocking type of bet here of ~25-35% of the pot.

Tomorrow with Day #13.

Originally Posted by cferdi

Agree with both your quiz answers and your comment on today's lesson! It is a very powerful one, despite seemingly simple.

I've often had a difficult choice on the river and I find this one lesson will be very helpful in this regard. No more 'Oh my God, they've just made their xxx, should I bet anyway or check/call/fold?', or 'Shit I missed all my 15 outs! Now what?' lol - Now at least I have a much better and more logical approach to dealing with the river "WWHD?"

"Are there better hands that will fold or worse that will call?" is a MUCH better question to ask myself - can't wait to try it out!

Originally Posted by jeanpierre1279

I really liked the thoughts on how to bet on the river because I always thought about my hand (I know it's a mistake), but what is right is what the opponent can have hands or what he demonstrated during the flop, turn or river?

I know that it is still very difficult for me to call bluffs or worse hands outside the standard of betting because I still don't know if the villain played a slow game or really has nothing, let's say I'm still in the dangerous percentage of 60% of hits.

Improving the villain's range is necessary to make the right decision in the end.

About the concept of the worst hands to call, I really improved my game a lot when I started using it, but about the worst hands folding didn't. In games where I always play better hands, I payed but I noticed that this is directly linked to the villain's style and if his stack covers me.

I think with a better stack and showing (at least for the table) that you really play good hands I think you will have more productivity on the river.

Originally Posted by freddydr87

The river is the street in were we win or louse the most off our money,because the pot is generally big by this stage, and that is the key question,wish beater hands will fold and wish worse hand will call,is there any worse hand(some time the range off the vilain in river dont his booton hands he has foldem allready).
I have to manny dificulties by stracting value in river,do i bet and get paid by worse hands,or do a check to let the vilains missdraws bluff me? i found it very hard to read,

Originally Posted by Phoenix Wright

Another solid lesson today. I knew about protection betting, but I learned the connotationally-speaking difference between this and an Equity Denial Bet. I thought they were always the same thing, but now I know that Equity Denial Betting is more to get "any two random cards" to fold (since they still have decent equity against us) and protection betting is more guarding against specifics (like draws or overcards).

Originally Posted by VolJir

I have two questions about todays video:

1. At minute 9:37, the hand where we have a set of 9 and the A hits the river. How would you like a check instead of value betting ourself? I think most of the times he bets if he holds an A anyway and that way we could also induce a bluff and simple check-raise the river.

2. At the last hand, you said that you would Raise to 200 vs two limpers (we are in the SB, Blinds are 15/30). I thought that to be surprisingly big and would rather raise to maximal 135 or 150. What is the purpose to bet that big?

PS: Really enjoyed these videos and actually made an account here because of them, keep them coming!

Originally Posted by ammje

Excellent article, many times, you have to turn your hand into a bluff in order to win the hand, and you have to know when to bluff, this article has helped me a lot.

I don't totally agree with this (Collin says that all river bets or raises are fundamentally value bets or bluffs.), Many players who don't know how to play sometimes make crazy river bets, they practically turn their value hand into a bluff, so It is difficult to play against these types of players.

I remember a hand. BB600, I was at BB with A6o, a limp from utg, all the other fold players.
The flop was 838, turn 3, and river 6, on the flop and turn was check, check, in the pot there were about 2000 chips.
I decide to check on the river, and the villain bets 3000 chips, I thought he was bluffing, and I call, but the villain shows A8o.
I was surprised by the size of his bet, I would think that a good player wants to get value out of his hand, but he practically turned his hand into a bluff.

Originally Posted by redboy23

Hello CCers,

I am a little worried these days with the high frequency of talking to myself. But I do like the results of many of my decisions when I do ask myself the important question on the river;

Which worst hand will call me?
Which better hand I can get to fold?

These questions really help me to think critically to get the right bet sizing or the big laydown in some situations. I try not to take too long to get my thoughts together and it really helps if I think ahead. Many times, I think my opponents go with the flow of the game and do not stop to review the action in many spots and this works out in my favour more often than not.

Truth be told, I get a bit too much pleasure from getting villain to fold instead of enticing the call of a small bet size on the river. This is an area of my game that I need to improve. I have seen many players happily collect 1 BB on the river holding the nuts, instead of scaring their opponents away with a shove or a huge pot bet. This is something I should incorporate in my game and tournaments as well.

Originally Posted by iveyfan

In home games, I have seen people way too often bet 'incorrectly' on the river and end up surprised when people called with better hands. A lot of recreational players (in my opinion) do not think about showdown value enough (or at all) when considering river betting.

Originally Posted by Katie Dozier

I totally agree that this is something recreational players often don't pay enough attention to, and is extremely important to being a winning player

Originally Posted by freddydr87

The river is the street in were we win or louse the most off our money,because the pot is generally big by this stage, and that is the key question,wish beater hands will fold and wish worse hand will call,is there any worse hand(some time the range off the vilain in river dont his booton hands he has foldem allready).
I have to manny dificulties by stracting value in river,do i bet and get paid by worse hands,or do a check to let the vilains missdraws bluff me? i found it very hard to read,