Dealing with 3bets pre-flop

#1 August 29th, 2018, 3:35 PM

Lets say I open raise with A10s, AJs, AQs, in a medium stage of a tournament with more or less 15-25 BB, and someone with a large Stack keeps 3beting me...
I am folding every Hand because I dont know What to do. And more I fold more they raise

Can someone explain How to play these hands?

I open these hands in Button, Hijack, Cuttoff, MP 1, MP 2 and sometimes AQs and AJs from UTG+1 and UTG+2

#2 August 30th, 2018, 3:56 AM

Well 1st your range for opening is a bit wide, you should break down 15-19bb stack as open shoving especially from late position. Then 20-25bb as a stack to open off of, it depends on what position you open from and what position 3bets you but my guess is you’re over folding. I would happily 4-bet jam even A10s from the cutoff to a 3-bet from any position maybe except the BB if that player is tight. When you open off a stack around 20-25bbs you should have a plan if you get 3-bet. You might think shoving in those situations is punting but it’s actually printing as you will take down the pot pre flop a lot and even if you’re up against KK with A10s you still have 32% and 12% vs AA which are rare and you block AA, so you’re rarely going to be doing awful when called. Again it does matter how your opponent plays as well as your image at the table.

#3 August 30th, 2018, 11:49 AM

That's how you play large stacks, a way to avoid getting in this situation is to go all-in with premium cards and fold with all others, or min 3 bet perhaps, anyhow thats what large stacks are supposed to do, in theory you need a large stack yourself, else your odds to make it to the later stages gets worse, so perhaps work instead of building large stacks so you can do this to small stacks instead

#4 August 30th, 2018, 1:25 PM

This is a bad situation to be in. When someone reraise me I usually give them credit the two first times. If he continue to 3 bet I think you should 4 bet shove the hands you listed (maybe even lighter). We need to play hands to build a stack, and we can not be in a situation where we can only play our monsters. This would lead to a slowly and certain decrease of the stack.

If you 4 bet shove villain will in most cases get the point and stop. If he continues we will get in a race at some point. This is not a situation I want, but its better to bust in a race (in this case you have a chance, you could even doubble up), than be blinded out.

If you are down to 15bb (or close) you should consider open shoving in this spot.

My 2 cents

#5 August 30th, 2018, 6:13 PM

Ok , I Will note every 4bet shove and see If It works, thank you guys!

#6 August 30th, 2018, 6:15 PM

AT and AJ are "win a small pot or lose a massive pot" hands as known in the poker community. They are very often dominated so I'd release them into the muck from UTG+1.

#7 August 30th, 2018, 7:24 PM

Playing with these hands not only precludes winning the pot by being aggressive but also reducing the value of your hand by encouraging a multiplayer pot. The hands that the Aqs, Ajs, and others do postflop is dependent on the number of opponents. Each additional opponent who sees the flop reduces the value of hands with a pair, I would raise, and call depending on the post flop.
Many players try to isolate to play with a maximum of 2 players, so do not lose the strength of the hand, because if the board comes down, you need to go check and control the pot to try to improve the hand on the river. you have 10bb, or 15bb, it goes from shove because it is much more + EV ..

#8 August 30th, 2018, 7:27 PM

in the 25BB range I tighten up a lot, if I have a player 3Betting me with their stack, I will typically Open Shove with those types of hands, and actually standard open with Monsters in hopes they will 3 bet so I can get more then just the blinds.

#9 August 30th, 2018, 7:39 PM

In this situation, I usually fold or just press the bet to see the flop, we lose position, and it all depends on the flop cards.

#10 August 30th, 2018, 9:21 PM

Honestly i almost never 3 bet unless i hage aomething crazy like KK or AA andni have raises in front of me...but i always either 2 bet or 2.5x BB...this isnt recommended by many but i prefer to see flops without paying, especially wheb im in a cash game playing a bit loose...but in general try to save 3, 4 or 5 bets for the cards that you have a high win rate with like AA, KK or QQ...just my opinion and im sure theres a better way lol

#11 August 30th, 2018, 11:32 PM

In that position, I'm shoving every time. I would probably just open shove with <25 bb, especially in the later stages.

#12 August 30th, 2018, 11:48 PM

tighten up some when you are short and keep getting 3bet by the big stack. you can also slip in a 4bet jam to back them off a bit. But at some point you need to be willing to 4bet or call a jam with hands like ajs aqs aqo ect.

#13 August 30th, 2018, 11:52 PM

Well I with these and with those chips I'd rather bet all my chips against players who have more chips so I cheer for and be paid double.

#14 August 31st, 2018, 3:44 AM

If some big stack keeps bullying you around, it's ok to shove. You gotta double up to survive anyway. If you are raising and folding to every 3 bet, you are just bleeding chips.

#15 August 31st, 2018, 4:16 AM

same old story mate youre not tight enough and not aggressive enough.

#16 August 31st, 2018, 1:54 PM

If you are in the middle of a tournament with a 20bb and open with hands like AQ, AJ and ATs, if a player deep stack 3bet you, 4bet all-in! Most of the time in this type of situation you have the best hand and he's only using the stack to try to intimidate you and put pressure on you!

Of course you might against hands like AA-KK for example, but most of the time this is not what will happen and you'll most likely be in a coinflip.

#17 September 3rd, 2018, 1:03 AM

Originally Posted by Maikychan

If you are in the middle of a tournament with a 20bb and open with hands like AQ, AJ and ATs, if a player deep stack 3bet you, 4bet all-in! Most of the time in this type of situation you have the best hand and he's only using the stack to try to intimidate you and put pressure on you!
.

Do ya think so? Putting pressure on a 20bb stack that's opening? I'd think more often than not you'd have next to no fold equity on a 4bai AND that typically players will assume you are opening with top of your range while on 20bb's (if you're not open-shoving with it).

OP, I think instead of asking "how do I play these hands", maybe ask "how do I play in these 'spots' or 'vs. these types of players in these spots'.
If you want more specific responses, try posting up a Hand History (please read the instructions on CC on how to do this so that you'll get the best responses). Hope to see you posting up some HH examples soon!

#18 September 3rd, 2018, 2:25 AM

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Do ya think so? Putting pressure on a 20bb stack that's opening? I'd think more often than not you'd have next to no fold equity on a 4bai AND that typically players will assume you are opening with top of your range while on 20bb's (if you're not open-shoving with it).

OP, I think instead of asking "how do I play these hands", maybe ask "how do I play in these 'spots' or 'vs. these types of players in these spots'.
If you want more specific responses, try posting up a Hand History (please read the instructions on CC on how to do this so that you'll get the best responses). Hope to see you posting up some HH examples soon!

I agree with this. There was a few solid responses, but Poker Orifice is right you need to post the hand histories so we can dive deeper. For the small amount of information given having a balance of 4bet Jamming and folding is good. When I play I like to be "in charge" there is a massive amount of dead money to be won from players that are just "scared" to play. If villain is three betting you constantly then you know he's 3 betting light a percentage of the time, and mixing those hands you listed in your 4 bet shove range against "this" type of player would be profitable. I would still like to go a little further into thoughts about this, but I want to know more about the table and the players, your perceived range as well.

#19 September 3rd, 2018, 2:43 AM

If he keeps 3-betting you, stop betting and let him bet first. If you have a hand, call him or maybe even then you re-raise! Slow play a great starter and turn it around on him.

Let him think you are nervous and then play the good cards you're dealt.

#20 September 3rd, 2018, 3:39 AM

Originally Posted by Jdjakubisin

If he keeps 3-betting you, stop betting and let him bet first. If you have a hand, call him or maybe even then you re-raise! Slow play a great starter and turn it around on him.

Let him think you are nervous and then play the good cards you're dealt.

I don't like this.... you start doing that and you will start letting players enter your pot with unknown hands.. Fine for ONE time for balance MAYBE just to trap, but I do not like this long term..

#21 September 3rd, 2018, 5:55 AM

Originally Posted by Manjerica1

Lets say I open raise with A10s, AJs, AQs, in a medium stage of a tournament with more or less 15-25 BB, and someone with a large Stack keeps 3beting me...
I am folding every Hand because I dont know What to do. And more I fold more they raise

Can someone explain How to play these hands?

I open these hands in Button, Hijack, Cuttoff, MP 1, MP 2 and sometimes AQs and AJs from UTG+1 and UTG+2

With your stack size and an aggressive 3bettor behind you, you should tighten up (fold, A10) If he has been over-aggressive you can 4bet jam AQ over him. And AJs is right on the borderline. Depends how aggressive he has been.

#22 September 3rd, 2018, 6:03 AM

Originally Posted by Nathan Smith

With your stack size and an aggressive 3bettor behind you, you should tighten up (fold, A10) If he has been over-aggressive you can 4bet jam AQ over him. And AJs is right on the borderline. Depends how aggressive he has been.

I personally don't think it does, but I kinda see merit in what you're saying but A10 AJ AQ or all the same hand in this scenario..

#23 September 3rd, 2018, 6:19 AM

Originally Posted by MemphisGrind

I personally don't think it does, but I kinda see merit in what you're saying but A10 AJ AQ or all the same hand in this scenario..

How would it not matter? The more aggressive villain has been with his 3-betting frequency, the more likely he is to be 3-betting light. So depending on your read, AJ may be well ahead of villains 3-bet range.

#24 September 3rd, 2018, 6:22 AM

Originally Posted by MatMackenz

How would it not matter? The more aggressive villain has been with his 3-betting frequency, the more likely he is to be 3-betting light. So depending on your read, AJ may be well ahead of villains 3-bet range.

All of em would be ahead of villains 3 betting range that's my point. They are all the same hand in this example

#25 September 3rd, 2018, 6:23 AM

Originally Posted by MatMackenz

How would it not matter? The more aggressive villain has been with his 3-betting frequency, the more likely he is to be 3-betting light. So depending on your read, AJ may be well ahead of villains 3-bet range.

You broke it down like A10 is a fold AQ is a jam AJ I'm not sure..... They are all the same hand they are either ahead of villains 3 betting range or he has you crushed

#26 September 3rd, 2018, 1:42 PM

Originally Posted by MemphisGrind

I don't like this.... you start doing that and you will start letting players enter your pot with unknown hands.. Fine for ONE time for balance MAYBE just to trap, but I do not like this long term..

I guess it's not a long term solution. You only have to do it once to cool the guy and go from there. It just levels the playing field with him a little.

#27 September 3rd, 2018, 2:13 PM

I dont think its good play to fold every time you 3bet and get reraised, after a couple of times i would think he just wants to bully me for my chips,after that i would deff go in a race with him..

#28 September 3rd, 2018, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by spottedflyer

I dont think its good play to fold every time you 3bet and get reraised, after a couple of times i would think he just wants to bully me for my chips,after that i would deff go in a race with him..

I would actually say it's insane to keep playing with a guy who's raising that much more than you can handle. You need to get information from people when they bet. If he's buying too much, just get out. I played with a guy who bet $65 in a 1/3 game constantly. He called my reraise after the flop. I had pkt J's w/ 10,7,2 on the board and he ended up w/ pkt 8's. Runner runner was 6-9. You have no control and a massive amount of equity you are risking.

I thinkl the difference is people who do and don't have the spare cash to back up that kind of play. And it is just "play," remember. More serious players should see playing with that guy as a joke in that respect.

#29 September 3rd, 2018, 6:23 PM

What is your opening raise? 3x or 2.5? Once you are under 20 BB I agree with a shove and getting rid of the ATs/AJs hand if you are not going to shove there.

If I'm playing AT/AJ I'd rather not see a flop and just take the blinds/ante.

Also, if a guy senses weakness and is gunning for you, I'd put pressure on him to risk his stack rather than rely on your sense of preservation/risk adversity.

#30 September 3rd, 2018, 6:27 PM

Originally Posted by MemphisGrind

You broke it down like A10 is a fold AQ is a jam AJ I'm not sure..... They are all the same hand they are either ahead of villains 3 betting range or he has you crushed

AQ is much better against KJ than AJ is against KQ. I see a large difference.

#31 September 3rd, 2018, 6:42 PM

i would min raise these hands and if you have to fold your not losing too much of your stack. i always act very aggressive though if there's only two people behind me. then its a shove everytime

#32 September 3rd, 2018, 8:41 PM

Originally Posted by franknavin

i would min raise these hands and if you have to fold your not losing too much of your stack. i always act very aggressive though if there's only two people behind me. then its a shove everytime

With a min raise you are giving odds to almost every hand to play you. Then you can�t tell your opponents range. Are you talkIng cash game? If so - I agree with the play, but for tournament, I disagree strongly.

#33 September 3rd, 2018, 9:05 PM

If you are letting big stack bully you then you are bleeding chips and not getting a chance to make chips by folding before a flop.
I would shove in good position and let big stack bully think about risking a good part of his chips instead of having to fold to him.

#34 September 3rd, 2018, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by badameli

AQ is much better against KJ than AJ is against KQ. I see a large difference.

Well there�s not

#35 September 4th, 2018, 9:52 PM

Originally Posted by MemphisGrind

Well there�s not

I'll take my 3.5% advantage. I also know that when I hit, I'm confident I'm good (if 2 face hit the flop) and I'm more likely to dominate an opponent. All said and done when I make a 4 bet I'm probably not called by JT, or 87s.

#36 September 6th, 2018, 4:02 AM

Originally Posted by badameli

I'll take my 3.5% advantage. I also know that when I hit, I'm confident I'm good (if 2 face hit the flop) and I'm more likely to dominate an opponent. All said and done when I make a 4 bet I'm probably not called by JT, or 87s.

If you are putting villain on 3 betting (KJ and KQ) exactly in this scenario that OP stated! and don't understand that those hands are the same in THIS situation then I give up on trying to help you.

#37 September 6th, 2018, 5:24 AM

If the same villian keeps threebetting you, you can exploit his play by opening a tighter range when he has yet to come in behind you.

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Dealing with 3bets pre-flop

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