Carbon's new HUD/calculator

[Big_Rudy]

you should get a pop-up to tell you what settings to use ?
Go to player admin and look at the settings for it if you haven't already done so.

I'm not a computer guy, so it's prolly something stupid on my end, but I can't even get the darn thing to download. I just click on the downlaod button, wait a few seconds, and get a "download failed" message. I don't know what's going on. Haven't tried it today though. That was late last night, so maybe I'll have a go at it again today.

 

[tcummo]

What browser are you using (explorer / firefox/ google chrome) or something different ?
Have you had problems downloading anything else ?

 

[Big_Rudy]

What browser are you using (explorer / firefox/ google chrome) or something different ?
Have you had problems downloading anything else ?

Using IE9. Other downloads seem to work fine. Gotta go for now. Will try again later and let you know how it goes.

 

[tcummo]

Ok m8,
good luck

love the 'trekky' sig

 

[Big_Rudy]

Thanks, I was wondering if anyone/everyone got it, or not. Seems appropriate for a free forum about studying poker. (Also, sadly, relates to me as I have a mountain of school debt to pay off).

Anyway, going to wrestle more with the download thing tonight. Hopefully I get better results.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Just decided to go over to that "other" forum that has a Carbon rep. This move is getting decidedly mixed reviews there. The rep, of course, is toeing the company line and supporting the move by spouting double-speak.

According to the rep.... (paraphrasing here, obv.)
1) Fish won't use the tool anyway
2) It's primarily for the "regs" benefit as it...
3) Reduces the compatibility issues that software the regs are already likely using may have...

Funny....I didn't hear any regs clamouring for this kind of "help"; I didn't realize HM/PT had any "compatibility" issues with Carbon; And, if most of your players aren't going to use it (as the rep is stating), why are you offering it????

There have been several threats by regs to pull their funds from Carbon in protest. I don't want to jump the gun, but I may be joining them. Lastly, there are already reports there of players using this tool to datamine from games they aren't playing in. I thought this kind of action was banned long ago by almost every reputable site.

Looks like I may be looking for a new poker home soon if this all plays-out the way I think it will.

 

[JusSumguy]

Tournament Indicator! Isn't that Marty Smith's HUD?

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[AAChipMagnet]

Looks like a move to get more players to stay despite their ridiculously long check cashouts, terrible RNG, and bouncing checks. Maybe they could concentrate more on that portion of their service and some players will actually stay and play.

 

[dmorris68]

Tournament Indicator! Isn't that Marty Smith's HUD?

It's either Hold'em Indicator or Tournament Indicator, yes. Not his (at least I don't think), but he is the major shill for them.

Looks like a move to get more players to stay despite their ridiculously long check cashouts, terrible RNG, and bouncing checks. Maybe they could concentrate more on that portion of their service and some players will actually stay and play.

You realize all of that is controlled by Merge and not Carbon, right? This is a Carbon-specific new feature.

And terrible RNG? LOL.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Looks like a move to get more players to stay despite their ridiculously long check cashouts, terrible RNG, and bouncing checks. Maybe they could concentrate more on that portion of their service and some players will actually stay and play.

terrible RNG? I don't know why I waste my time replying to rigtards but here goes. There is no such thing as a terrible random number generator. Something either generates random numbers or it doesn't. The quality of a RNG is not subject to a quantitative scale. DUCY?

 

[Charade You Are]

IMO it won't really change the fish. If anything they'll ignore it because it goes against their view of the world or alternately, it will excite them even more when they see their odds so low, just like winning the lottery.

 

[Big_Rudy]

Well, I got the download to work just fine on my laptop which is an old (very old) POS. Somehow it still won't work for my desktop, but at least I know the problem is on my end. Anyway, at least I can play with it a little now to get a general impression.

Still leaning towards leaving Carbon, at least mostly, since I believe it WILL help the fish too much by giving them playing advice. Again, don't mind the HUDs at all. It's just giving them odds, equities, and such that annoys me.

 

[JusSumguy]

Pretty cool. Works great.

I'd like to see this catch on.

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[Charade You Are]

Are hand histories for this only available for 30 days still? That's the max carbon allows.

It's a little disingenuous for some the existing HUD users to be outraged by this. Where did you think all this would lead? With the trackers, odds calculators, datamining sites and datamining websites selling hand histories, this was inevitable.

Those few of us who objected to HUD's as bastardizing the game were seen as not "with it". Seems to me you just don't want anyone playing in your sandbox without paying for it. It's not like HEM and PT3 were secrets. So it also gives odds without them having to do the math. Big deal. How is that different from objecting to HUD's because you no longer have to make the effort to take notes?

 

[Big_Rudy]

Are hand histories for this only available for 30 days still? That's the max carbon allows.

It's a little disingenuous for some the existing HUD users to be outraged by this. Where did you think all this would lead? With the trackers, odds calculators, datamining sites and datamining websites selling hand histories, this was inevitable.

Those few of us who objected to HUD's as bastardizing the game were seen as not "with it". Seems to me you just don't want anyone playing in your sandbox without paying for it. It's not like HEM and PT3 were secrets. So it also gives odds without them having to do the math. Big deal. How is that different from objecting to HUD's because you no longer have to make the effort to take notes?

Not truely a fan of HUDs either and I have voiced this in the past. However, I have accepted them as a part of the online game. No way in hell you can manually take notes while multi-tableing a decent amount of tables. And, that's really what its all about online. Everyone wants to multi-table. Here's a truely earthshaking idea.... ban multi-tableing....see how THAT would go over with the online crowd, ban HUDs, ban trackers, etc, etc,. NOT GONNA HAPPEN. Online is a different game than live. Always has been , always will be.

As for the differences between HUDs and this thing.... If you can't see the difference between having easy access to "this guy plays 34% of hands and raises 2 % of them" versus "ok I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but the software tells me I have only 10% equity in this pot, I'd normally call a shove here with my awesome skillz, but I guess maybe I'd better not"; well, then I really can't help you.

 

[LeanAndMean]

I downloaded this the minute I got the email. Downloaded fine with my windows 7. I tried it out right away on a micro limit table. It is pretty cool, not only gives you the chances for your hand to hit, but categorizes hands into nine level types. As far as this being helpful. I already knew the best hands to play, so it didn't change my game any, but rating the other players is a big help. I would like to know what others think of that final column, it gives the chip ;amount that each player is up or down. Really neat if it worked, but when I was up a lot over my buyin, it had me in the negative, and players who I knew to be losers were in the positive. The rest of it is great, unless it is as flawed as the "NET" column of course.

I printed out the 12 page User Guide and kept it in front of me as I played, to help remember what all the columns were. My only problem is the display beneath each player, it interfers with information I need to know, like who has cards. And it doesn't disappear when a player leaves!!!. I have never tried the paid HUDs, cause I am too cheep,

 

[LeanAndMean]

I am surprised at the number who say they will leave Carbon. How dumb is that??? Are you leaving merge as well? because merge shares these tables, not everyone you are playing with is on Carbon. And when you play on another merge site you are playing with Carbon players.

 

[shinedown.45]

it WILL help the fish too much by giving them playing advice.

I just want to point something out, look at the above statement then look at your sig.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Are hand histories for this only available for 30 days still? That's the max carbon allows.

It's a little disingenuous for some the existing HUD users to be outraged by this. Where did you think all this would lead? With the trackers, odds calculators, datamining sites and datamining websites selling hand histories, this was inevitable.

Those few of us who objected to HUD's as bastardizing the game were seen as not "with it". Seems to me you just don't want anyone playing in your sandbox without paying for it. It's not like HEM and PT3 were secrets. So it also gives odds without them having to do the math. Big deal. How is that different from objecting to HUD's because you no longer have to make the effort to take notes?

I expect somebody who has been a member of a poker forum for 3 years to be able to differntiate between putting self collected data into a useful display and giving odds and telling them the odds they are being offered.

It's like somebody doing a leakbuster video for someone and then saying well it's no different than someone who uses teamviewer to get real time help. There is a world of difference.

 

[Big_Rudy]

I just want to point something out, look at the above statement then look at your sig.

Good point . I suppose I COULD argue that my sig says nothing about not having to actually work and/or STUDY to gain your knowledge as opposed to having it handed to you on a silver platter when you've put zero effort into learning the game. I COULD argue that, but I won't.

I could also argue that I have no problem with them getting all the advice they want when they aren't actually playing (e.g. not real-time or something called STUDYING), but I won't. So, I presume you have no problem with me and my leaky game playing while having Tom Dwan standing over my shoulder and giving me playing advice in real-time so that everyone who thinks they are playing me is really playing against me + Tom?

I expect somebody who has been a member of a poker forum for 3 years to be able to differntiate between putting self collected data into a useful display and giving odds and telling them the odds they are being offered.

It's like somebody doing a leakbuster video for someone and then saying well it's no different than someone who uses teamviewer to get real time help. There is a world of difference.

Blue makes a good point as well. I presume that all of you who don't have issues with this are also good with everyone using teamviewer to get real-time help that way too, right?

 

[dmorris68]

Guys, I don't really have a problem with any odds calculator. Remember: this product has been around for years for both cash and tourneys. All of the major sites (short of bodog/Bovada) have specifically allowed them. Even Cake, who are notoriously tracker-unfriendly -- for a long time this was the only choice of software on the Cake network.

It is not considered cheating nor real-time coaching. The player still has to interpret the results and make the decisions themselves. Knowing your hand has X% equity or what your pot odds are is meaningless without understanding everything that goes into an equity decision.

Carbon apparently decided this was a worthwhile addition to the game, presumably to level the field between those who pay for trackers/HUDs and those who don't/won't/can't, even though it's really a poor substitute for HM/PT. I just fail to see what all the drama is about.

I could also argue that I have no problem with them getting all the advice they want when they aren't actually playing (e.g. not real-time or something called STUDYING), but I won't. So, I presume you have no problem with me and my leaky game playing while having Tom Dwan standing over my shoulder and giving me playing advice in real-time so that everyone who thinks they are playing me is really playing against me + Tom?

Flawed analogy. The software doesn't tell you what plays to make, which is what you're implying that Tom would be doing. It shows your pot odds and hand equity, so a more correct analogy would be Tom telling you... what your pot odds and equity were. Which you don't need the likes of Tom to do, anyone clued into the concepts could do it for you. Then leaving it up to you to make the right decisions. Big difference.

Again, virtually all sites allow for real-time calculators as long as they don't make your decisions for you. This has been so ever since I've played online poker. In fact my very first poker software from like 4-5 years ago was Hold'em Indicator before I had ever heard of PokerTracker (and HM wasn't invented yet), and I got it free for signing up through a Cake affiliate.

 

[Big_Rudy]

I am surprised at the number who say they will leave Carbon. How dumb is that??? Are you leaving merge as well? because merge shares these tables, not everyone you are playing with is on Carbon. And when you play on another merge site you are playing with Carbon players.

I am actually envious of Blue and other ROW players who have a choice. If I we're in their shoes, my money would already be off of Carbon/Merge. As it is, with me being a US player, I have few choices. But, I am now actively looking at other, non-Merge, sites to play at whereas before I was happy (well as happy as possible post BF) on Merge and not planning on playing anywhere else.

 

[dmorris68]

And if you don't believe me about the sites allowing it, here's PokerStars policy:

Q: Can you give me some examples of acceptable tools and services ?
A: The following are examples of tools and services which are permitted:
...
17. Holdem Indicator
...
102. Tournament Indicator
...
This list was last updated February 15, 2012.

And yeah, there's 105 specifically allowed software products in that list, many of which do the same or even more than this software does. If the site itself doesn't have a problem with it, why should you? Are you saying if Stars still allowed US real-money play that you'd boycott them too?

 

[JOEBOB69]

The point is the people that know about the r&r are from a forum or so forth.They are the ones tring to learn,study the game for the sake of getting better.The fish the ones we try to make $$$ off of are not tring to get better.They are stuck in there on little world,not on a forum not reading a book.They have no clue what a hud is,what a vp$ip/pfr is etc.But now they are getting to see how shitty they are playing and it might make them "try harder".
I just don't like it.It's like the site forcing fish to learn!!!**** em

 

[Big_Rudy]

Guys, I don't really have a problem with any odds calculator. Remember: this product has been around for years for both cash and tourneys. All of the major sites (short of Bodog/Bovada) have specifically allowed them. Even Cake, who are notoriously tracker-unfriendly -- for a long time this was the only choice of software on the Cake network.

It is not considered cheating nor real-time coaching. The player still has to interpret the results and make the decisions themselves. Knowing your hand has X% equity or what your pot odds are is meaningless without understanding everything that goes into an equity decision.

Carbon apparently decided this was a worthwhile addition to the game, presumably to level the field between those who pay for trackers/HUDs and those who don't/won't/can't, even though it's really a poor substitute for HM/PT. I just fail to see what all the drama is about.


Flawed analogy. The software doesn't tell you what plays to make, which is what you're implying that Tom would be doing. It shows your pot odds and hand equity, so a more correct analogy would be Tom telling you... what your pot odds and equity were. Which you don't need the likes of Tom to do, anyone clued into the concepts could do it for you. Then leaving it up to you to make the right decisions. Big difference.

Again, virtually all sites allow for real-time calculators as long as they don't make your decisions for you. This has been so ever since I've played online poker. In fact my very first poker software from like 4-5 years ago was Hold'em Indicator before I had ever heard of PokerTracker (and HM wasn't invented yet), and I got it free for signing up through a Cake affiliate.

Ok, well you've given me something to think about, at least. I will wait awhile before I fully respond to this, but just let me point-out that an experienced player like Lean has found the software useful and helpful (e.g. it has improved her game). Now, if it's improving the game of an experienced player; how much is it helping the clueless?

Carbon says it themselves on their site in the pitch for this tool, " We want all our players to be the best players that they can be so we are offering...". Really? Do YOU want all the players at YOUR table to be the best players they can be?

Guess it comes down to why you are playing poker in the first place. If you're playing to make money, you want all your opponents to be as bad as they can be, not as good as they can be (unless you're one of those who assumes they can make more money from good players than bad ones).

There will be plenty of players with very little ability who will significantly improve their games just by following the software's advice. You may quibble over whether it's telling you what to do or not, but it unargueably is making decisions easier by providing equities/odds/ etc/etc that before many players were clueless such things even existed.