Would you do this, soft play keep smallest stack alive?

[blix177]

You are a huge stack, chip leader by the next guy by 50%. 40BB, next guy 28BB. We are 29 players remaining (27 players gets paid, ICM is high over 3X buyin for min cash), short stack is 1.4bb. Most players are in the range of 5-7BB

Shortest stack is sitting to your left. Folds to you in the SB. Would you fold the blinds to the shortest stack? Hand is Q3o.

I felt I have an incentive to keep the shortest stack alive. Each orbit I am picking up 3-6BB from the other players. At this stage of the game min raising, playing the big stack bully can really get more chips in the next 5-6 hands.

As a pure EV play, of course it is to raise. But long term play do you call or fold and min raise the next bunch of hands?

 

[ph_il]

fold in sb.

attack 40 bb and 28 bb limps.

3bet light vs 40 bb and 38 bb opens.

jam 100% when 40 bb and 28 bb stack folds.

 

[Shumkoolie]

fold in sb.

attack 40 bb and 28 bb limps.

3bet light vs 40 bb and 38 bb opens.

jam 100% when 40 bb and 28 bb stack folds.

Assuming not a Progressive KO, where there are bounty considerations, I fully agree with this. One thing I would like to add - not all 5-7bb stacks are equal. There are some that won't care about the min-cash and it would be smart to identify those people and be a little more careful. But, for those where you can tell that making the money is their goal, those are the stacks you want to punish when the other big stacks are out of the hand.

 

[63burner]

If huge stack, sure..

If you are the HUGE stack position, on cruise control, karma dictates throwing the small stack a hand. Some day, you may need a little charity thrown your way.
In normal, dog eat dog, tiny stack, survival mode, I offer no help, if I'm a 2nd or 3rd to smallest stack.
Can't expect charity, it is nice to give and receive, however.

 

[hugh blair]

Never giving away half a blind without seeing my equity first big blind has got to sweat every time against any paint in my opinion always raise.

 

[300HPGOD]

In theory this is a good move if you have a table you can bully. I have no problem with this approach and also have no problem with the approach of kill em all and never going soft on anyone. One problem is you can only control your table so at the other three tables (assuming its 9 handed and not 6 handed) things may be the opposite and two players will drop out fast. The move you make to "protect" the short stack at your table might only get you half an orbit. That will lead to chips of course but is it worth it? I see two answers there that probably both can be backed up.

The other problem with this is what another poster had wrote and that is some smaller stacks will pick up on this or already have. They will then adjust their all in range against you to be wider and sooner rather than later you will be called and be behind. Its not catastrophic to lose 5-7 BBs in this spot but that also means it dries up your bullying business quite a bit and also you lose 20%ish of your stack. In the long run it might be better to just take out those that you can take out. Plus in this specific situation you can go all in and freeroll of sorts. If you lose (I believe you said its 1.4BBs so no biggie) then the small stack stays in and it looks like you are not trying to keep them in to others. If you win then you gain chips in the process.

 

[fundiver199]

In this situation you surely have an interest in the bubble not bursting, but I would still jam. The reason is, two players more need to go out, so even if this short stack bust, you are still in bubble play. Also he will win the flip half the time more or less, so its not like, you always knock him out.

I also think, making such an obvious soft play can cause anger among the other players and cause someone to spite call you. Actually soft play is against the rules in most poker rooms, and there could even be a small risk, someone reports you for it, and now you have problems with site security and need to explain.

 

[Poker_Mike]

You are a huge stack, chip leader by the next guy by 50%. 40BB, next guy 28BB. We are 29 players remaining (27 players gets paid, ICM is high over 3X buyin for min cash), short stack is 1.4bb. Most players are in the range of 5-7BB

Shortest stack is sitting to your left. Folds to you in the SB. Would you fold the blinds to the shortest stack? Hand is Q3o.

I felt I have an incentive to keep the shortest stack alive. Each orbit I am picking up 3-6BB from the other players. At this stage of the game min raising, playing the big stack bully can really get more chips in the next 5-6 hands.

As a pure EV play, of course it is to raise. But long term play do you call or fold and min raise the next bunch of hands?

Keep the shortstack alive and raid the rest of the table!

First it's going to frustrate players who are hoping the shortstack gets knocked out.

Second it keeps the bubble going!

I'm raising the table almost every hand and folding to a sizeable shove.

Good luck !

 

[Vallet]

You must raise here according to all the rules. But I will tell you my position. I often have a short stack and always double it when aggressive players with large stacks attack me with hands like Q3.

 

[fundiver199]

First it's going to frustrate players who are hoping the shortstack gets knocked out.

The thing is, when we are the "big stack bully", we actually dont want the other players to be frustrated, because then they will probably start to call us wider, than they are supposed to. This is something, I actually consider in play, and if I have been running card hot, I might take off a few spots, because I dont want to induce someone to make a "spite call", which is bad not only for him but also for me.

 

[fundiver199]

You must raise here according to all the rules.

Its a little strange, that we are the only two, who picked up on this, but collusion is against the rules of any card room, and giving BB a walk, when he is this short, could be considered collusion. Sure in this spot Hero would be doing it, because he think, he can also gain an advantage, but it could easily be seen by others as a way to help the short stack cash. But of course if Hero only does it once, he can always claim, it was a misclick, or that he did not pay attention to stack sizes, because he was multi tabling. Still the point remains, that this is actually borderline breaking the rules, so if you want to keep your path 100% clean probably best to not do it.

 

[blix177]

Its a little strange, that we are the only two, who picked up on this, but collusion is against the rules of any card room, and giving BB a walk, when he is this short, could be considered collusion. Sure in this spot Hero would be doing it, because he think, he can also gain an advantage, but it could easily be seen by others as a way to help the short stack cash. But of course if Hero only does it once, he can always claim, it was a misclick, or that he did not pay attention to stack sizes, because he was multi tabling. Still the point remains, that this is actually borderline breaking the rules, so if you want to keep your path 100% clean probably best to not do it.

I mean the collusion argument I am not too worried. Q3o is only 48.5% chance to win. Cs any 2 cards. And you can always be holding 23o, them you only have 32% chance to win.

Top that off that it was a $1.50 buy in not knowing pot odds make sense too. I mean it is one thing if we playing $100 buy ins but at micro stakes, anything is game.

 

[fundiver199]

I mean the collusion argument I am not too worried. Q3o is only 48.5% chance to win. Cs any 2 cards. And you can always be holding 23o, them you only have 32% chance to win.

Most tournaments have antes these days, which mean, Hero is paying 0,9BB to win a pot of around 3,8BB. He need less than 25% equity, and even 32o has 32,3% against a random hand. So this is clearly a jam any two cards spot for Hero.

Top that off that it was a $1.50 buy in not knowing pot odds make sense too. I mean it is one thing if we playing $100 buy ins but at micro stakes, anything is game.

I agree. I would not worry, that someone might report this also, or that it would be taken serious, when it was a 1,5$ tournament. Just wanted to point out, that it could in theory get us into trouble, if we did that in, as you say, a 100$ tournament.

 

[Poker_Mike]

The thing is, when we are the "big stack bully", we actually dont want the other players to be frustrated, because then they will probably start to call us wider, than they are supposed to. This is something, I actually consider in play, and if I have been running card hot, I might take off a few spots, because I dont want to induce someone to make a "spite call", which is bad not only for him but also for me.

I want position and I want them to be soooo frustrated that they tilt.

More likely however - they make a big mistake - which is easier to capitalize on when I have position.

Wide calling - spite calling? Fantastic! What will they do when I c-bet the flop?

I am usually min-raising as the bully so I expect a call from the BB - at a minimum.

 

[Shumkoolie]

In theory this is a good move if you have a table you can bully. I have no problem with this approach and also have no problem with the approach of kill em all and never going soft on anyone. One problem is you can only control your table so at the other three tables (assuming its 9 handed and not 6 handed) things may be the opposite and two players will drop out fast. The move you make to "protect" the short stack at your table might only get you half an orbit. That will lead to chips of course but is it worth it? I see two answers there that probably both can be backed up.

The other problem with this is what another poster had wrote and that is some smaller stacks will pick up on this or already have. They will then adjust their all in range against you to be wider and sooner rather than later you will be called and be behind. Its not catastrophic to lose 5-7 BBs in this spot but that also means it dries up your bullying business quite a bit and also you lose 20%ish of your stack. In the long run it might be better to just take out those that you can take out. Plus in this specific situation you can go all in and freeroll of sorts. If you lose (I believe you said its 1.4BBs so no biggie) then the small stack stays in and it looks like you are not trying to keep them in to others. If you win then you gain chips in the process.

If you keep the short stack alive (to clarify, I'm not softplaying them, I'm doing this because I want to keep the table from breaking, allowing me to continue to apply pressure on other stacks who WILL tighten up on the bubble, allowing me to steal even more blinds.

In this situation you surely have an interest in the bubble not bursting, but I would still jam. The reason is, two players more need to go out, so even if this short stack bust, you are still in bubble play. Also he will win the flip half the time more or less, so its not like, you always knock him out.

I also think, making such an obvious soft play can cause anger among the other players and cause someone to spite call you. Actually soft play is against the rules in most poker rooms, and there could even be a small risk, someone reports you for it, and now you have problems with site security and need to explain.

I don't necessarily think of it as softplaying, think of it as protecting a situation that might actually be more profitable. If you lose a player, the table may break and then you're off to another table where you may not have the great situation you had before.

Remember, your job as the big stack is not to knock people out of the tournament, it's to accumulate chips, which in reality, is your only objective regardless of how large/small your stack is. Your approach definitely differs based on stack size. But, if it helps you to grab another few big blinds from your opponents, then why not do it?

 

[fundiver199]

Wide calling - spite calling? Fantastic! What will they do when I c-bet the flop?

They are 5-7BB stacks, so they usually either go all-in before the flop or fold. Maybe big blind can still have a calling range, but he is not making a mistake by calling you wide, if you min-raise. Also postflop is very easy, when stacks are short. If he connect, he get it in on the flop, if he dont, he fold.

 

[fundiver199]

If you lose a player, the table may break and then you're off to another table where you may not have the great situation you had before.

With 29 left there are 4 tables running, and to get down to 3 tables 2 more players need to bust. Then the bubble has also burst, and the ICM situation will no longer exist. Busting 1 player will at most cause a new player to arrive from the table, which has 8 players. So Hero will not be moved, if he bust the shorty to his left, but he might get another player in that seat.