When Short Stack is ALL IN

[CDNMAN 42]

There was a time, perhaps old school, where if a player on the short stack jammed and more than I player called then they usually would check it down, unless one player had the nuts. The idea being that the more hands against the short stack the more likely he would be out of tournament and that is the goal as well as winning...reduce the number of opponents left. However, of late I have seen numerous occasions where one player would bluff others out and then end up losing to the short stack. not very wise.

 

[pentazepam]

It depends on how big the side-pot is. If the side pot is dry (empty or almost empty) and we are on the bubble or near the bubble you are right. bluffing into a dry side pot is generally wrong. Betting when you have a good hand is another story.

 

[mara2259]

There was a time, perhaps old school, where if a player on the short stack jammed and more than I player called then they usually would check it down, unless one player had the nuts. The idea being that the more hands against the short stack the more likely he would be out of tournament and that is the goal as well as winning...reduce the number of opponents left. However, of late I have seen numerous occasions where one player would bluff others out and then end up losing to the short stack. not very wise.

A preflop bet in itself is already a kind of bluff. We see only our two cards and the actions of our opponents, but we don’t know where the river will take us. Even the strongest hand preflop can turn to dust on subsequent streets. By increasing the number of hands against a shorty, you can of course increase the chances of his elimination, but taking into account the fact that they go all-in with either a decent or a drawing hand, the likelihood that he will become a medium or even a large stack also increases. The mistake is not that by squeezing out your opponents you are trying to win the main pot, or in case of resistance a side pot, but that you are doing it with a garbage hand.

 

[fundiver199]

Bluffing into a dry sidepot is for sure not a very clever move. This is also true, if you have a draw without showdown value, because unless you make your hand, you are going to lose at showdown to the all-in player. So you actually want the other player to stay in the hand for implied odds. It can still make a bit of sense to bet for protection though. If you flop a low pair like 55, you have a higher chance to win at showdown against one opponent rather than two.

 

[billzaao]

In my opinion, A,5 5,10, A,10 A,K brothers and all the pars

 

[Tomash7788]

I agree before I had more of everyone checks situation in order to kick low chip all in guy. Lately big stacks just try to push others to defend their investment, and there I am folding another hand

 

[dannystanks]

Players that bet into a dry pot are looking out for their own interest. I’m not saying this is right or not. But if I bet a guy off a dry pot and loose to the all in player, who cares because I’m loosing that pot anyway and it doesn’t matter to me who I loose to. If it’s early in a tournament then it doesn’t matter if the short stack goes out. The bubble might make a difference. I’ve actually heard a player say to the other one “let’s just check it down”. They got a warning from the floor for collusion. And really that’s what you are doing, you are checking it down for the interest of all the other players and not necessarily your own. Good luck!

 

[finaltable1]

It all depends on large number of factors.. ITM or not... side pot.. ranges... and so on. IF you want to win the tournament you have to gather all chips in your stack, one way or another, it's not like "2 big stacks are playing against a shorty".

 

[_420_420_]

Oftentimes it is not the correct play and checking down makes more sense, people that are blasting like this are not playing optimally

 

[fundiver199]

I’ve actually heard a player say to the other one “let’s just check it down”. They got a warning from the floor for collusion.

Obviously its not allowed to verbally agree on checking it down. But good players will routinely do it without a verbal agreement, because they understand, that bluffing or betting light into the dry sidepot only benefit the all-in player.

 

[Mag_P1e]

By the way, this is a very accurate observation! I started seeing this very often. I can understand when this happens in knockout tournaments and there the opponent hopes that by remaining 1v1 he has a better chance of getting a knockout. But this also happens in ordinary tournaments, where everyone is only interested in seeing that the number of players is constantly decreasing. It seems to me that such players simply do not understand what they are doing, or their ego forces them to express themselves even where it is completely unnecessary.

 

[fundiver199]

But if I bet a guy off a dry pot and loose to the all in player, who cares because I’m loosing that pot anyway and it doesn’t matter to me who I loose to.

The whole point of bluffing is to win the hand, when your opponent(s) fold. Sometimes the third player will call, and then you lose your bet, if he has a better hand. So in this case you took a risk with no reward. Lets take an actual example to illustrate the point. The board is 9h8h2c, and you have 7s6s, so you flopped an OESD. The all-in player has As2s for bottom pair, and the third player has KdQc for two overcards. The equities in this 3-way pot are as follow:

7s6s - 46%
KdQs - 19%
As2s - 35%

In a normal hand, where all players have significant chips behind, 7s6s could bet here and most likely make both opponents fold. Its pretty tough to continue with bottom pair no draw in a 3-way pot, especially if you are not closing the action. And KQ cant really continue either with just overcards and no draw. So in this case the semi-bluff will likely work, and the equity of 7s6s will go from 46% to 100%, which is a significant gain. However when the player with As2s is all-in, they can not fold. And for that reason when KdQs fold out, the equities will change to:

7s6s - 50%
KdQs - 0%
As2s - 50%

So in this situation rather than increasing your equity from 46% to 100%, you only increased it to 50%. The all-in player is happy however, because his equity went from 35% to 50%, so your bet mainly protected him from getting outdrawn by KdQs, which had 6 outs to a higher pair.

If it’s early in a tournament then it doesn’t matter if the short stack goes out.

That is true, and it also does not matter much at a later stage, unless its on the final table or right on the bubble. If its 80 players left, and 71 places pay, the EV gain from seeing someone bust is very small. The far more important consideration is to not bust yourself, if you have a decent stack. If you succeed in that, someone else will take care of busting 9 random players, so that you get in the money.