0
0PussyCat
Rising Star
Bronze Level
if u do this every time people will know you are steeling andu will get caught by the blinds
if u do this every time people will know you are steeling andu will get caught by the blinds
D
dlam
Visionary
Silver Level
After studying tournament play, I have come up with the conclusion that there is three define stages in the tournament poker
Stage 1 here is early in the tournament. Everyone is deep stacked and almost all the time all five community cards are dealt. You can play your own game
Stage 2 blinds are increasing. There is variation stack size. When most players are 10-30BB I see a lot of pre flop raise-call then push/fold or push/shove or shove/fold or shove/reshove on the flop or turn .
Stage 3 this would be single table when it becomes short handed at around 6 players. The blinds are significant and may reach the critical less than 10BB. There is all pre flop play shove/fold or shove/reshove
Stage 1 here is early in the tournament. Everyone is deep stacked and almost all the time all five community cards are dealt. You can play your own game
Stage 2 blinds are increasing. There is variation stack size. When most players are 10-30BB I see a lot of pre flop raise-call then push/fold or push/shove or shove/fold or shove/reshove on the flop or turn .
Stage 3 this would be single table when it becomes short handed at around 6 players. The blinds are significant and may reach the critical less than 10BB. There is all pre flop play shove/fold or shove/reshove
M
moneybagz718
Enthusiast
Silver Level
ive always pride into not stealing pots since day 1 but havent made it far into tourneys,but now since ive attempted to start stealing pots in the middle of tourney's ive been much more succcesful and am making it further into to tourneys so i quess in order to be succesful you do have to steal pots at sometimes in the game more or less when blinds increase with antes
N
Nargil
Rising Star
Silver Level
There's no pride in that at all.
But if you take a pride in being blinded out, then I guess it's "okay".
There are pretty much 3 phases for me, quite similar than what Dlam described.
1. 10/20 - 25/50 - playing tight, just play premium hands.
50/100 - 100/200 - depends on stack, default 3bb raises or shoves, depending on situation and stacks.
100/200 + ante - and so on - now when the fun begins. You rarely have 25 - 30bb at this point, more like 5-10, it's just shove or fold.
Rather play a complete rag, than get blinded out!
B
badaboombaa
Enthusiast
Silver Level
the logic in this thread is ridiculous. We should always be attempting to make the correct play and whether "stealing the blinds are worth it" shouldn't enter our mind. If stealing nets us an ev of 0.8bb (just an example) even if it's only 1% of our stack it's still a net positive and we should do it rather than fold. We should always be attempting to make the most profitable play. A lot of people in this thread are trying to create a cookie cutter approach rather than actually using their brains and approaching each situation with logic. So yeah I'm going to say I don't like to steal blinds until I've registered to the tourney and have a seat at the table. From then on if I see a profitable steal spot I'm going to take it.
seachicken
Rock Star
Silver Level
When to start to steal blinds really depends on my tournament strategy but if you are in position and first to act I will try with ATC.
First i describe stealing the blinds as playing ATC that i would not want to play even with position.
I like to go after the blinds early if its a tournament with better players.
I have several reason for doing this.
1)The blinds are small but it doesn't cost me much.
2)You will appear to be active which always helps when you wake up with a hand.
3)People are still trying to figure out the table.
4)You get to know the sb and bb faster
5)I can try to set the opening raise for the table.
I can tell you last night i stole from the CO and than again from the button. The bb decided to play and i flopped a monster and stacked him. I had K9o and he had Aks. flop kk9. He told me later he didn't raise because he wanted to trap me. He felt i was playing ATC.
I am really only pushing this for the first couple rounds.
Once ante's are introduced blind stealing becomes a must unless you are at a very aggressive table.
First i describe stealing the blinds as playing ATC that i would not want to play even with position.
I like to go after the blinds early if its a tournament with better players.
I have several reason for doing this.
1)The blinds are small but it doesn't cost me much.
2)You will appear to be active which always helps when you wake up with a hand.
3)People are still trying to figure out the table.
4)You get to know the sb and bb faster
5)I can try to set the opening raise for the table.
I can tell you last night i stole from the CO and than again from the button. The bb decided to play and i flopped a monster and stacked him. I had K9o and he had Aks. flop kk9. He told me later he didn't raise because he wanted to trap me. He felt i was playing ATC.
I am really only pushing this for the first couple rounds.
Once ante's are introduced blind stealing becomes a must unless you are at a very aggressive table.
fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
A bit contradictory, your post. To call the logic ITT "ridiculous" then state "attempt to make the correct play", you seem to miss the point that a poster is trying to get advice so he can do exactly this, make the correct play. You, however, seem to know exactly when and why your do what you do. You also mention making the most profitable play, but seem to assume that it will be obvious what play is the most profitable. Is a steal attempt the most profitable, or could there be some tight/loose tendencies of the players still to come that need to be considered, as one example, which may make a re raise very probable, which will narrow down the cards one will "steal" with. And so on.
While I understand that there is no recipe to when stealing is wrong or right, that is exactly the purpose of this thread, to help people get a grasp on SOME situations that they may not be already familiar with.
And while some answers may be not what many people think are logical, not all players have 1000's, or even 100's, of tourneys under their belt, and it does them good to get involved in discussion, to perhaps say something kind of silly. A logical explanation of WHY what they say is not perhaps the most logical approach is much more beneficial than an arrogant "ridiculous" comment.
MediaBLITZ
Legend
Silver Level
If you read what you wrote you will see it all equals whether it's worth it or not to steal blinds.
If stealing nets us an ev of 0.8bb (just an example) even if it's only 1% of our stack it's still a net positive and we should do it rather than fold.
We should always be attempting to make the most profitable play.
if I see a profitable steal spot I'm going to take it.
But I hear what you're saying.
fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
Bwammo
DragTheBar Coach
Silver Level
Since this seems to be a hot button topic for the moment...here's my two cents:
Blind theft is completely and 100% a necessity but the method in which one goes about it is completely and 100% determined by the particular style one wishes to employ.
If you want to be a maniac, then by all means, get your hands in that cookie jar. Sometimes you'll get caught, like for instance if you raise J7s in LP, get flatted by a blind, see a J high flop and it checks to you...you bet, get check/raised, decide they're full of it and shove only to see that they have a better J. That happens, and that's just part of the style...it's dangerous but effective if done properly.
If you want to be a tightwad and "steal" only with good hands...well then you're going to dominate somone who flats with JTo from the blinds when you raise AJo in LP and you both flop a J. That happens, that's just part of the style, it's not dangerous but is also very effective if done properly.
The best thing, IMO, is to just figure out what type of player you want to be and learn how to maximize your profits within those guidelines.
Blind theft is completely and 100% a necessity but the method in which one goes about it is completely and 100% determined by the particular style one wishes to employ.
If you want to be a maniac, then by all means, get your hands in that cookie jar. Sometimes you'll get caught, like for instance if you raise J7s in LP, get flatted by a blind, see a J high flop and it checks to you...you bet, get check/raised, decide they're full of it and shove only to see that they have a better J. That happens, and that's just part of the style...it's dangerous but effective if done properly.
If you want to be a tightwad and "steal" only with good hands...well then you're going to dominate somone who flats with JTo from the blinds when you raise AJo in LP and you both flop a J. That happens, that's just part of the style, it's not dangerous but is also very effective if done properly.
The best thing, IMO, is to just figure out what type of player you want to be and learn how to maximize your profits within those guidelines.
Worak
Legend
Bronze Level
HUDs like PT3 or HEM will give you information about how often SB/BB (and BTN if you're stealing from CO) will fold against steals, and alot more general stats.
The decision whether stealing in a particular situation is +EV depends on many factors (hero hand strength, opponents' ranges, effective stacks, antes, table dynamics, bubble/non bubble stage, oop limpers aso.) and won't be displayed by a HUD.
After all you must make that decision alone unless you're a bot.
B
badaboombaa
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Facepalm, people who bolded that section or think it was a contradiction I was attempting to use sarcasm to introduce some humor and prove a point. I see it was lost. The bottom line is there is never a time where we should say "I'm not going to steal because it's too early". That just simply is never a valid reason not to. I didn't say I know everything or exactly when to steal or whatnot but that's not what OP asked. OP asked as if there was a certain time in the tournament where you turn on the blind stealing switch, and that quite simply is not the case and anyone saying it is just has no idea what they're talking about. The decision to steal relies on things such as position, how the players left to act are playing, and hand strength, and it's just way too complicated to go into detail on it all in a post here.
B
badaboombaa
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Don't want to derail the thread and I see you're a coach so you can hopefully help me understand but if we decide they are full of it and have J7 on a Jxx flop shoving seems pretty awful. Why not let them continue with their bluffs? Or is it because we don't want to let them draw out on us?
rufftuffcreampuff
Enthusiast
Silver Level
hi
I start stealing the blinds right from the very start, especially if the players in the blinds aren't playing back at me. If they're weak players I don't mind it when they call because I find they'll often just fold to a continuation bet on the flop. I think its good to start raising early because then when you do get a big hand they might get fed up with your raising and then play back at you at the wrong time (wrong for them but right for you ha ha). In tournaments with only 1500chip stacks I don't steal as often at the start because I don't think stacks are deep enough in these games for that (until the blinds start to go up a bit)
:flowers:
I start stealing the blinds right from the very start, especially if the players in the blinds aren't playing back at me. If they're weak players I don't mind it when they call because I find they'll often just fold to a continuation bet on the flop. I think its good to start raising early because then when you do get a big hand they might get fed up with your raising and then play back at you at the wrong time (wrong for them but right for you ha ha). In tournaments with only 1500chip stacks I don't steal as often at the start because I don't think stacks are deep enough in these games for that (until the blinds start to go up a bit)
:flowers:
spunka
Visionary
Bronze Level
Yes you would always steal is your risk were =0 to get caught.. however there is always a risk and you have to weight the risk vs the reward and in that math is a part of the thing you have to calculate (among player, stack, pos. e.t.c. )
But what I really don't like in your post is the last part, this is a forum for players and I don't think I in any place have seen a limit on the sieze of how big you post can be..... so please help us here to get better after all this is what a big part of this forum is about discusse poker stuff, have fun with friends and your are allowed to disagree and have your own oppinion, but there is room for all even long and complicated posts.
Best regards
Bwammo
DragTheBar Coach
Silver Level
Honestly I put very little thought into the examples I gave, but even if another path is taken in the J7s example we're still going to lose a lot if not all of our chips if we're raising with around 15xbb preflop. 2.5xbb go in preflop on our end, if the BB called us then we have a total pot size of around 5.5-6xbb (and that's not even accounting for antes, if they exist) as we enter the flop. If we cbet it would probably be around half the pot, which puts us into the realm of 8-9xbb in the pot and only around 10xbb in our stack. If we fold every time someone check/raises us in this situation it will be a -ev play to make the raise preflop and cbet the flop...and given the stack situations we would be getting roughly 2:1 if we end up all in. If we get min-check/raised then we're facing a situation where they could easily bleed us of our remaining chips. The point I was making is that raising wide in LP is dangerous and that's just part of the style. There will be drastically more situations in which we must navigate carefully and tip toe around, and we will lose some tournaments because of it, but that doesn't make it bad or good...it's just a style.
Last edited:
DetroitJimmy
Legend
Silver Level
I like to switch up my "style" here and there vs. more observant opponents. Playing LAG is fun once in a while. Playing TAG is better vs. people who play better post flop than me. Or 3bet a lot.
It all depends on exact table situation whether it's worth it to steal/re-steal. My guess if you are deepstacked and not too good at postflop play then TAG is the way to go early. Loosen up as you start dropping in M or effective BB's. Play more of a Harrington on Holdem style in a sense.
If you are good at outplaying people postflop then I see no reason to use it your advantage to get some equity early. As long as you don't get all stupid and start raising 70% or sumpin you should be good to go in the long run.
It all depends on exact table situation whether it's worth it to steal/re-steal. My guess if you are deepstacked and not too good at postflop play then TAG is the way to go early. Loosen up as you start dropping in M or effective BB's. Play more of a Harrington on Holdem style in a sense.
If you are good at outplaying people postflop then I see no reason to use it your advantage to get some equity early. As long as you don't get all stupid and start raising 70% or sumpin you should be good to go in the long run.
Bwammo
DragTheBar Coach
Silver Level
DetroitJimmy
Legend
Silver Level
To a point. Just remember that it ain't really stealing if you have a decent hand like JT or even K9 sooted. Also if table is tight to the left and loose on the right steal more often.
For instance the guy to your right raises almost every CO and the blinds to your left are super nits. Good time to 3bet light in position with a hittable hand. Try to always do it with hittable hands until you get real short. Basicly if it's a 100BB deepstack multi table tourney play like you would a cash game.
I actually think re-steals are more important than steals. The key is to balance your game perfectly to adjust to tables. All kinds of examples I can give to steal/re-steal early, but I don't type well and this is taking forever
.BTW when I'm playing STT's I rarely steal early. Honestly after I move back up to the $12+ games it's time to play more early/mid game. More mid game then any. Just too many good players left on the bubble to make a good profit being short to mid stack so often. Think it's time to take more chances early in these when I decide to move back up.