Value of suited connectors in "Kill Phil" overestimated ?

[Jacki Burkhart]

I would categorize myself as a TAG with tricks.

my default is to be TAG. But I'll open up in late position or when table dynamics dictate.

more than anything I consider myself a STACK SIZE player....not a style player. is Missjacki a TAG? a LAG? a ROCK? depends on her relative stack size more than anything else. (why, yes! I did just refer to myself in the 3rd person! )


I do not play ring games for a whole bunch of reasons, so I cannot comment on that except to say this one thing: Cash players who dabble in tourneys tend to lose in tourneys and the experience detracts from the profitability of their cash game. Tourney players who dabble in cash frequently lose in both games.

now, of course there are exceptions. there are some great players who have a skill edge in both. but most of us cannot multitask that well between the 2 worlds.

 

[Arjonius]

I am very surprised to hear from both of you that TA is a winning strategy.

I think it is a good principle or (how to say) ideal poker utopia - raise high when you got good cards ! It'll work if every hand would end with a showdown.

It don't work in practice.
1) ring games
if you wait 1 - 2 hours to get your good cards everyone knows you're a a nit and when you get them - everyone just fold. What you got is SB + BB + something - not enough to survive.
2) tournaments
all the same + when blinds raise you just are eaten by them before you get your good cards

Making exaggerated or false characterizations will not help you to improve. Where did I say or even suggest that TAG = nit?

Yes, nits are very tight, but they range from very aggressive to very passive in terms of how they play when they enter pots.

Also, what's this about raising high with good cards? TAG does mean having a narrower than avg range when you open-raise. But if you think I somehow suggested it means your raise size should depend on your hand strength, that's flat-out incorrect.

If you choose not to believe that TAG is the best approach for a beginner, the way most likely to get you to BE or profitability quickly, fine. Play however you want. But understand that your objections only apply if you make assumptions about TAG that were neither stated nor suggested.

 

[suby_rafael]

Spot choosing

There is nothing wrong with the chart itself. Only thing you might be doing wrong then is playing wrongly them at the wrong spots. You have to choose your spots wisely while playing these hands.

Other factors also matter a lot like -
1. The players to your left, whether they are super tight, tight or less so.
2. Chip counts.
3. Stage of the tournament.
4. Playing when you are at small blind / big blind. Here the way the player to your right plays influences decision making with such cards.

If you play them the right way at the right spots and counting in all the factors above then i think it will make a difference.:cheers:

 

[Fahrenheit451]

IMO TAG is only a combination of two measurements of how many hands you play and how much you bet.
This is only a small part of a strategy and advising beginner to play TAG looks to me like advising young sportsmen run fast and jump high.

When I started poker I tried strategy for limit holdem as described by Phil Helmuth's book "Play Poker Like the Pros". At that time it looks the simplest method that I can find.
Phil called it as supertight, but I would call it "Sure way to loose slowly"

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

IMO TAG is only a combination of two measurements of how many hands you play and how much you bet.
This is only a small part of a strategy and advising beginner to play TAG looks to me like advising young sportsmen run fast and jump high.

When I started poker I tried strategy for limit holdem as described by Phil Helmuth's book "Play Poker Like the Pros". At that time it looks the simplest method that I can find.
Phil called it as supertight, but I would call it "Sure way to loose slowly"

Almost, but not quite correct. TAG is a combination of the tighter range of hands you play and the FREQUENCY that you bet. Not the amount.

For instance you could play a range of top 10% early position and top 20% late position and always raise 3bb preflop and always bet half the pot post flop and that would be TAG. It would be far too simplistic to work well in tougher games but might work fine at low stakes with a soft field.

 

[Fahrenheit451]

Almost, but not quite correct. TAG is a combination of the tighter range of hands you play and the FREQUENCY that you bet. Not the amount.
.

Thanks for correction. I think I read somewhere that with better hands TAG style players should bet higher. Obviously I was wrong.

 

[Fahrenheit451]

Making exaggerated or false characterizations will not help you to improve. Where did I say or even suggest that TAG = nit?

Yes, nits are very tight, but they range from very aggressive to very passive in terms of how they play when they enter pots.

Also, what's this about raising high with good cards? TAG does mean having a narrower than avg range when you open-raise. But if you think I somehow suggested it means your raise size should depend on your hand strength, that's flat-out incorrect.

If you choose not to believe that TAG is the best approach for a beginner, the way most likely to get you to BE or profitability quickly, fine. Play however you want. But understand that your objections only apply if you make assumptions about TAG that were neither stated nor suggested.

Seems that I did't understand correctly what a TAG style really is. Thanks for clarification.

 

[teepack]

Personally, I think low suited connectors are fools gold. If I have a deep stack and blinds are low and I can get into a hand for cheap, I might play 8-9 or 9-10 suited connectors, but anything below that to me is just garbage. If I have J-10 or even Q-J suited and somebody drops a big raise before me, I will probably just fold it (again depending on my stack size and other factors). If you hit a flush with a 5-6 pocket, the chances are at least decent (especially online) that somebody else has a suited pocket in the same suit, and your flush is no good.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Personally, I think low suited connectors are fools gold. If I have a deep stack and blinds are low and I can get into a hand for cheap, I might play 8-9 or 9-10 suited connectors, but anything below that to me is just garbage. If I have J-10 or even Q-J suited and somebody drops a big raise before me, I will probably just fold it (again depending on my stack size and other factors). If you hit a flush with a 5-6 pocket, the chances are at least decent (especially online) that somebody else has a suited pocket in the same suit, and your flush is no good.

well, we are talking about all in preflop situations where the primary goal is to get them to fold. so the "playability" post flop is not really a concern (although the "playability" of 56s postflop is often times easier, IMO than QJs...)

as for your example of a 6 hi flush being no good...the odds of 2 people getting a flush each holding 2 in their hand are not very common. yes, it can happen and it's basically a cooler. Somebody can have AA when you have KK as well; that's just the brakes.

 

[magicius]

Personally, I think low suited connectors are fools gold. If I have a deep stack and blinds are low and I can get into a hand for cheap, I might play 8-9 or 9-10 suited connectors, but anything below that to me is just garbage. If I have J-10 or even Q-J suited and somebody drops a big raise before me, I will probably just fold it (again depending on my stack size and other factors). If you hit a flush with a 5-6 pocket, the chances are at least decent (especially online) that somebody else has a suited pocket in the same suit, and your flush is no good.

Well we cant all be nits,can we?

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[magicius]

well, we are talking about all in preflop situations where the primary goal is to get them to fold. so the "playability" post flop is not really a concern (although the "playability" of 56s postflop is often times easier, IMO than QJs...)

as for your example of a 6 hi flush being no good...the odds of 2 people getting a flush each holding 2 in their hand are not very common. yes, it can happen and it's basically a cooler. Somebody can have AA when you have KK as well; that's just the brakes.

Its common to have lower flush... Can count how many times i lost and wond k high vs a high,and not speaking about 45s and similar...

Also if we are speaking about aifp than sc are way behind... Even AJ or AT rather than them

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[MediaBLITZ]

There is nothing wrong with the chart itself. Only thing you might be doing wrong then is playing wrongly them at the wrong spots. You have to choose your spots wisely while playing these hands.

Other factors also matter a lot like -
1. The players to your left, whether they are super tight, tight or less so.
2. Chip counts.
3. Stage of the tournament.
4. Playing when you are at small blind / big blind. Here the way the player to your right plays influences decision making with such cards.

If you play them the right way at the right spots and counting in all the factors above then i think it will make a difference.:cheers:

THIS THIS THIS

One size does not fit all! It is all situational and no single book has the depth required to cover that.

 

[IPlay]

Have you considered that Kill Phil may not be completely appropriate to your circumstances? The Phil in the title refers to opponents whose games are far above yours. Do you see a lot of these in your freerolls?

This, a big part of the value of shoving a suited connector is that you have fold equity with your shove which is slim in freerolls. In some situations shoving SC's might be ok but you really just want folds and a steal on the blinds and if you don't have a chance at that, don't shove.

 

[mstram]

. I don't do it anymore because I fear that I'll loose again.

I would call it "Sure way to loose slowly"

The word is LOSE

Where did this "loose" thing start ?

 

[mstram]

Obviously, starting with 300bb fits the smallball style much better than starting with 75bb

If all players have the same size stacks ( ~ > 20bb) what difference does having 75bb or 300bb make (for small ball ) ?

 

[hffjd2000]

I surely disagree with the chart. Some of no. 6 hands should be placed on the 9-10 spots. They are being dominated and should be mucked.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Its common to have lower flush... Can count how many times i lost and wond k high vs a high,and not speaking about 45s and similar...

Also if we are speaking about aifp than sc are way behind... Even AJ or AT rather than them

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I stole the following calculation from 2+2 forums, as I'm not bright enough to do this math on my own, but I knew the odds were quite small.

Start by assuming only two players are at the table. The chance that the first has a suited hand is 12/51 =23.5% (first card can be anything, second must be one of the remaining 12 cards in that suit). The chance that the second has a suited hand of the same suit is (11/50)*(10/49) = 11/245 = 4.5%.

Now we need a flop of that same suit: (9/48)*(8/47)*(7/46) = 21 / 4,324 = 0.5%. Multiply these together and get 0.0051% or 1 / 19,491 or about 1 in 20,000.

More players at the table multiplies the number of ways this can happen. At a 10 player table, there are 10*9/2 = 45 pairs of players. This makes the expected number of players with suited hands of the same suit almost 0.5, and if everyone with a suited hand sees the flop, about a 0.2% (1 in 500) chance of two players flopping a flush.

The math proves that 2 players flopping a flush is less common than AA vs KK facing off preflop. It is possible, but not common enough to really worry about. The fact that it COULD happen should not affect your decision making process.

I think people are missing the point here. You are shoving expecting to NOT get called. it's all about fold equity. So your exact 2 cards don't matter so much. The premise being that these expert players won't want to "flip" with you when they could just find a better spot later. Better players prefer to play a lot of small pots, they hate being put to big decisions for a big chunk of their stacks when they are unsure if they have between 40-60% equity, but probably no more than that.

The reason suited connectors rank higher than AJ or AT for instance is for those times you DO get called you'll have the highest possible equity vs. the top of villain's range.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

If all players have the same size stacks ( ~ > 20bb) what difference does having 75bb or 300bb make (for small ball ) ?

the deeper your stacks, the more maneuverability you have to outplay opponents on later streets.

for instance with 20bb stacks, there will rarely even be a river bet and usually not even a turn bet. stack sizes will usually have players pot committed preflop or on the flop. This removes 2 powerful weapons from a small ball player's aresanal: the turn and the river

now consider 75bb stacks...basically the same idea, there is a little more maneuverability but still not nearly as much room to "outplay" your opponents as when stacks are 300bbs deep.

Basically the shallower the stacks, the higher the value of 1 pair type hands. So if a novice player flops TP, and stacks are shallow the expert player has almost no way of taking the pot away besides sucking out. Take that same situation with deepstacks and the expert player can get a novice player to lay down by the river a good amount of the time.

or a shorter way to say the same thing:...deepstacked most hands do not go to showdown.

shallow stacked more contested pots will go to showdown.

 

[magicius]

Well i understand maths,but poker is poker,that was calculation for HU? I just lost 800 bb pot 9Ts vs AKs vs 7Js.... Now probabillity of thay happening is low but it happens

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[Fahrenheit451]

I think that at $30 you can definitely play the cheapest 9 man SnGs (or DONs) (probably $1). since 30% of the field is paid and you only have to outlast 6 other players to make something, I think that grinding SnGs and playing MTT freerolls is a good strategy until you get your 100 buy ins. Also, once you start to beat STTs you can move up to 45 man SnGs which is still lower variance than MTTs.

Thank you for advice !

Las two days I added some 9 man SnGs and I see that these are MUCH easier than freerolls to play.
It's strange somehow, should be the other way, but its easier to outplay people that are capable of folding.
On the other hand, I remember when I first time logged in pokerstars and tried to play play money there were folks that just shove AI all the time, then reload and shove again.
Freerolls are somewhere in the middle between play money and microstakes.

 

[Fahrenheit451]

The word is LOSE

Where did this "loose" thing start ?

sorry for my English, not my native language

 

[SHAEH2012]

position is key with all hands...

 

[MediaBLITZ]

Thank you for advice !

Las two days I added some 9 man SnGs and I see that these are MUCH easier than freerolls to play.
It's strange somehow, should be the other way, but its easier to outplay people that are capable of folding.

Yeah, kind of, sort of... They are a little easier to decipher since they generally have a little more desire to play well (versus just get lucky) and treat poker more like chess than roulette.
It is important to reiterate something - the information you are getting as to how you play is just about always slanted. As mentioned, Kill Phil is showing you how to attack more skilled players (like Phil Hellmuth) and put them on their heels. So you have to recognize you are in that situation to take advantage.
Again, so many books are written with a specific situation of the game in mind - not just showing you a style of play that is general. This could be as broad as cash versus tournament play, or how to negotiate the early stages versus the final table. Because of this you need to be able to read between the lines a little bit and diagnose what situation they are talking about - what context their lesson or point is being addressed to. When that situation arises at the table you can swing into action - but if you try to activate that strategy outside of the situation you could end up very disappointed and wondering why it's not working.

KUDOS to you for having the initiative to explore and try to learn new strategies and playing styles, but few of them operate in a vacuum and can apply though the whole course of a tournament or even cash session. Make sure your study material lines up with where you are at and what you are focusing on playing.