Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

Personally it depends on a few things. Stack size, stage of the tournament, players involved, positions of the limpers.

The earlier position the original limper is in the less likely I am to squeeze. Also the deeper stacked I am the less likely I am also. If I'm shorter stacked or it's in the later stages of the tournament where those chips already in the pot are worth more I would lean towards squeezing against a lot of late position limpers.

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

Unless we are at a weird stack size (Im thinking 15-20BB) I like to just call here and set mine. The reason why I don't like jamming when small in these spots is that Im probably getting multiple callers at that point and life isnt good fighting two or more opponents all in with pocket 5s. If you had a bigger stack you would probably have to raise very large to ensure folds which would be exposing your stack too much in my opinion. That 15-20BB spot is good for just jamming it (dont always do it but its the only stack I consider it) because we are starting to get low and have to take a chance but also are not risking some huge stack to do so.

In general, a ~20 bb stack is going to be a great opportunity to make a profitable shove here with a pair—assuming that you’re not suspicious of any of the limps. If it is post ante, I’d even tend to shove here a bit deeper.

The ultimate set mining spot would actually be one where we’re very deep as we’d then have the potential to make the most were we to hit.

That being said, I prefer to shove or just check in the big blind in these spots with a much lower effective stack size than our dream scenario, instead of raising smaller and building a large pot out of position—particularly versus the type of opponents likely to be calling stations for normal-sized raises.

This is a good question, I wonder about myself about this to, I'm guessing to passive.

As Katie say, these are often check or push spots, as we dont want to raise small, pick up callers and then be totally in the dark, when we miss out set, and we have to act first of every street postflop. Showing takes away our positional disadvantage, and weather I shove or not will depend on a lot of factors. For starters I am more likely to shove 88 than 22, since 88 has way more equity against people, who cant fold another small pair or a ragged ace. And often these are the kind of hands, people will limp.

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

Thank U 4 Posting.

So many factors go into this, the least of which is 22 and 88 cannot be compared versus limpers who are limping 77 66 55 44 33 76 65 A6s etc.


The big question is equity realization. If we are going to have trouble realizing equity because we can never steal the pot pre and will always be chased post then set mining is far better than raising.

Hope this helps

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

I'm a let you find out when you play me. I'm sure we'll cross paths unknowingly at some time.

Until then.....read my signature below.........Good Luck!

Set mining gets less profitable as tournaments continue as far as I know right? I guess in the beginning stages when you are deep stacked you can set mine a lot wider and try to make a big stack early on to help you move up the standings. After that though you're risking to much of your stack to set mine and then it's a much worse off play

Originally Posted by thatguy6793

Set mining gets less profitable as tournaments continue as far as I know right? I guess in the beginning stages when you are deep stacked you can set mine a lot wider and try to make a big stack early on to help you move up the standings. After that though you're risking to much of your stack to set mine and then it's a much worse off play

I think you might be a little confused...

The stage of the tournament is irrelevant.

It's the pot odds you're getting which determine whether set mining is +/-.

if my opponents have only limped and they don't have the profile to limp with good hands. in this situation I can afford to bet. to try to reduce the number of my opponents preflop on this spot. but in general with small pairs I prefer to bet as few chips as possible preflop because these are difficult hands to play when you don't hit your set.

Originally Posted by Tracid

I think you might be a little confused...

The stage of the tournament is irrelevant.

It's the pot odds you're getting which determine whether set mining is +/-.

How is it irrelevant? At early stages your stack is going to be upwards of 100BB? At the late stages it could easily be less than 10BB? I would say that the strategy you use at 100BB is quite different than when its at 10BB. At 100bb to set mine you could be risking 2-5% of your total stack but at 10BB you could be risking 20-50% or more likely the entire stack to set mine which is not the point of set mining.

Originally Posted by thatguy6793

How is it irrelevant? At early stages your stack is going to be upwards of 100BB? At the late stages it could easily be less than 10BB? I would say that the strategy you use at 100BB is quite different than when its at 10BB. At 100bb to set mine you could be risking 2-5% of your total stack but at 10BB you could be risking 20-50% or more likely the entire stack to set mine which is not the point of set mining.

It's irrelevant because you don't definitively know what your stack size is going to be at any stage besides for the start. At which point everyone's stacks are identical anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying stack sizes are irrelevant.

Just saying that you don't set mine or not set mine purely depending on the stage of the tournament.

Furthermore the question isn't "to set mine or not to set mine?", it's simply whether check or raise.

I left out parameters such as stack sizes, stage of the game, number of opponents etc etc because I wanted people to discuss various aspects of the problem and see where people took it.

It wasn't my intention to belittle your input, just point out that I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Regards,

Originally Posted by Tracid

It's irrelevant because you don't definitively know what your stack size is going to be at any stage besides for the start. At which point everyone's stacks are identical anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying stack sizes are irrelevant.

Just saying that you don't set mine or not set mine purely depending on the stage of the tournament.

Furthermore the question isn't "to set mine or not to set mine?", it's simply whether check or raise.

I left out parameters such as stack sizes, stage of the game, number of opponents etc etc because I wanted people to discuss various aspects of the problem and see where people took it.

It wasn't my intention to belittle your input, just point out that I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Regards,

I mean its just my opinion, just because you don't doesn't mean I'm confused. You want people to discus yet I am and you're saying I'm not allowed too. I don't appreciate you saying I'm in the wrong tree by posting in this when its an open post. I never said I know everything and this is the absolute rule, you just said my comment was ridiculous and I'm defending my thought process. I don't insult your intelligence and I will not have mine insulted. But oh well, I'll stay away from your posts then.

Originally Posted by thatguy6793

I mean its just my opinion, just because you don't doesn't mean I'm confused. You want people to discus yet I am and you're saying I'm not allowed too. I don't appreciate you saying I'm in the wrong tree by posting in this when its an open post. I never said I know everything and this is the absolute rule, you just said my comment was ridiculous and I'm defending my thought process. I don't insult your intelligence and I will not have mine insulted. But oh well, I'll stay away from your posts then.

You've got the wrong end of the stick here, I didn't say your comment was ridiculous at all- you're putting words in my mouth there.

I said the stage of the tournament alone is irrelevant, I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings but it wasn't personal.

You're welcome to reply to my posts and you are entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is.

It might pay dividends not to be so sensitive if someone disagrees with you though.

Try not to get debates/discussion mixed up with personal attacks.

I have nothing against you and didn't mean to belittle your statement, I just don't think that purely the stage of the tournament alone is a factor here and I stand by that.

No offence intended, my apologies!

Originally Posted by Tracid

You've got the wrong end of the stick here, I didn't say your comment was ridiculous at all- you're putting words in my mouth there.

I said the stage of the tournament alone is irrelevant, I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings but it wasn't personal.

You're welcome to reply to my posts and you are entitled to your opinion just as everyone else is.

It might pay dividends not to be so sensitive if someone disagrees with you though.

Try not to get debates/discussion mixed up with personal attacks.

I have nothing against you and didn't mean to belittle your statement, I just don't think that purely the stage of the tournament alone is a factor here and I stand by that.

No offence intended, my apologies!

Again I had an opinion you called it irrelevant and you are a mod so you win that is that. There was no need to call me irrelevant for doing so and saying I was barking up the wrong tree for commenting on a common part of MTT which is stack size changes in different stages.

Originally Posted by thatguy6793

Again I had an opinion you called it irrelevant and you are a mod so you win that is that. There was no need to call me irrelevant for doing so and saying I was barking up the wrong tree for commenting on a common part of MTT which is stack size changes in different stages.

I'm not a moderator, I'm a community guide.

The fact that I'm a community guide is also irrelevant.

When I say that is irrelevant, I'm not saying you're irrelevant, your opinion is irrelevant or that anything else at all is irrelevant.

Mods & guides aren't bestowed with the right to stomp around the forums belittling and being mean to people but, once again, that was not my intention.

It feels like we're going around in circles here and my thread is getting derailed.

Look, I'm pedantic and it's very easy for me to come off as a jerk if I'm not very careful but I didn't (and don't) intend to be unkind to you, I'm actually very sorry and sad that you have taken it that way.

I perhaps could have expressed myself a little more explicitly and with a little more thought and care and for that, I truly am sorry.

All I was trying to get across is that 'stage of the tournament' and 'stack size' are two different and unrelated factors.

Just because it's 'late stages' doesn't necessarily mean a player is going to have >10bb, ~10bb or <10bb.

Does that make sense?

You could be the chip leader in the late stages so, if that's the case, how is whether it's early, middle or late relevant when you could be in first, last or any position in between at any of those times?

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If we can't draw a line under this and move on then I will request the thread be cleaned up, for all this off-topic back & forth to be deleted and I will try rewording my reply which seems to have instigated this storm in a teacup.

Or alternatively I won't even bother amending what was, ultimately, me trying to point you in the right direction.

Sheesh!

Originally Posted by thatguy6793

You want people to discus yet I am and you're saying I'm not allowed too. I'll stay away from your posts then.

These people are indeed weird who allegedly want to hear others opinion but at the same time expect some indviduals to stay away from their thread lol

I always play weak pairs in multipot via check fold.

sometimes in this situation I mooving check behind, but if I short very probably that I push here 55+

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

limp is complicated to comment on, it depends a lot on the situation, and you have to have a lot of information and feeling of the game, if you realize that you are calling or 3-betting too much, an all / limp is worth it!

Originally Posted by Whodahustla

I'm a let you find out when you play me. I'm sure we'll cross paths unknowingly at some time.

Until then.....read my signature below.........Good Luck!

This response made me physically cringe, so sad.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

As Katie say, these are often check or push spots, as we dont want to raise small, pick up callers and then be totally in the dark, when we miss out set, and we have to act first of every street postflop. Showing takes away our positional disadvantage, and weather I shove or not will depend on a lot of factors. For starters I am more likely to shove 88 than 22, since 88 has way more equity against people, who cant fold another small pair or a ragged ace. And often these are the kind of hands, people will limp.

I agree with this
There a big difference between shoving with 22 and higher pair. 22 is 50 % against any random hand even 3-4. Call and set mine is best option
At least 88 is favorite against lower pair and A-rag rag is <8. So way more likely to shove on a limp pot with 88 especially if I’m the short stack in the BB

Another play I like is the raise only if I way deeper stack than my opponents to thin out opponents or just to make them fold. Pairs have show down value against a single opponent if it goes check check on the flop and turn. If I have multiple callers I play passive and just look to set mine Otherwise pairs are good 50% on the time

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

Against multiple opponents, I do not protect anything lower than an 8 as a general rule. I realize this is not directly related to your question but in ways it puts things into perspective.

From the BB I am sometimes squeezing 88 thru TT but I have gotten very comfortable set mining with them as well as I have learned squeezing them has a failure rate that I am not comfortable with. I am definitely squeezing JJ or better.

In a cash game I would be much more likely to squeeze 88-TT.

Originally Posted by thatguy6793

Set mining gets less profitable as tournaments continue as far as I know right? I guess in the beginning stages when you are deep stacked you can set mine a lot wider and try to make a big stack early on to help you move up the standings. After that though you're risking to much of your stack to set mine and then it's a much worse off play

She is in the Big Blind so it would cost nothing more to check and set mine.

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised... Check or bet?
Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?
Interested in your opinions!

with loose passive limpers I will raise any of these pairs some where anytime the stacks are in the 40-66 bb range. I will mostly raise the 66 , 77 , 88 pairs preferring to mine with the 55 and 44 most the time and sometime folding the 22 but not often vs loose passives. the raise or flat trigger comes into play when the opponents are loose passives and those who simply fold too loose to flop raises. I dont mind if I iso a player because given my range composition in these spots will be quite strong and I will be able to wrestle the pot away some of the time and will improve others. still more pots I can get to the showdown fairly gracefully and win against a chunk of his check down range an even pick off the odd ill timed bluff. I also dont mind getting called because I will still be checking a balanced part of my range despite the fact that I raised out of the blind. For instance I have and the board comes I can easily x/c or x/r given stack depth or bet size villian range composition given position or aggression

Originally Posted by Tracid

Question for all you tourney grinders out there...

You're in the BB, you get dealt a small-middle pocket pair (think 22-88) and there are a few limpers before the action reaches you unraised...

Check or bet?

Is this the ultimate set mine or are you letting too many over cards in cheaply?

Interested in your opinions!

It's RIGGED so it really doesn't matter which way we choose to play it. What matters is our read on how the software's been adjusted to the players on our table and then play the hand accordingly.
ie. If you're the net depositor - - you can choose any option here preflop..
Not knowing how deep effective stack sizes are makes a bit of a difference... but not that much because we're assuming we have a good 'Algo-read' and have classified our opponents as being the recipients of 'good' ... or 'Doom' ... and to what degree of each.

If we're 20bb deep we could put in what would typically be a bad raise size to 3bb (over a bunch of limpers), knowing that if &/or when the first player calls, the rest will also call in turn (We wants to sees a flop!). Now we're basically in no mans land on the flop (Or one might think we are... but we're not... because we gots the Algo-readzz).
So we hike it up to 3bb's.. accomplishing inflating the pot and putting ourselves in what would 'seem' to be a poor position for postflop, with say an SPR of 1.5 remaining. The flop comes KJ8ss ... our 44 is lookin' bad. We choose to check/call here as we've done our job of shark-scoping our opponents and we see that the 3 players in the hand are all micro grinders with an ROI of +20% or more! (15% is usually the cut off point where the software classifies you into receiving less favourable flops & poor runouts... especially vs. flush draws when we have Top Set on flop). We can comfortably check/call here in this spot, knowing that when we ship it in on the '4' turn we're going to be getting calls by some very good hands who will inevitably not improve on the river.

This ^ is all pretty basic stuff for someone who's been payin' attention to the Algo. I'm surprised you even asked tbh because to me it sounds pretty obvious you know what's up over there at Stars.

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

It's RIGGED so it really doesn't matter which way we choose to play it. What matters is our read on how the software's been adjusted to the players on our table and then play the hand accordingly.
ie. If you're the net depositor - - you can choose any option here preflop..
Not knowing how deep effective stack sizes are makes a bit of a difference... but not that much because we're assuming we have a good 'Algo-read' and have classified our opponents as being the recipients of 'good' ... or 'Doom' ... and to what degree of each.

If we're 20bb deep we could put in what would typically be a bad raise size to 3bb (over a bunch of limpers), knowing that if &/or when the first player calls, the rest will also call in turn (We wants to sees a flop!). Now we're basically in no mans land on the flop (Or one might think we are... but we're not... because we gots the Algo-readzz).
So we hike it up to 3bb's.. accomplishing inflating the pot and putting ourselves in what would 'seem' to be a poor position for postflop, with say an SPR of 1.5 remaining. The flop comes KJ8ss ... our 44 is lookin' bad. We choose to check/call here as we've done our job of shark-scoping our opponents and we see that the 3 players in the hand are all micro grinders with an ROI of +20% or more! (15% is usually the cut off point where the software classifies you into receiving less favourable flops & poor runouts... especially vs. flush draws when we have Top Set on flop). We can comfortably check/call here in this spot, knowing that when we ship it in on the '4' turn we're going to be getting calls by some very good hands who will inevitably not improve on the river.

This ^ is all pretty basic stuff for someone who's been payin' attention to the Algo. I'm surprised you even asked tbh because to me it sounds pretty obvious you know what's up over there at Stars.

tl;dr

I'm sorry but your low-echelon, transparent, flamebaity attempts at trolling are not only futile with me P.O. but are also, quite frankly, embarrassing.

I understand you've got some difficult stuff in your life you're trying to deal with at the moment but lashing out and trying to put others down isn't the way forward.

Try and act your age rather than your shoe size, hmmmm?

For me I'm only shoving if I'm short. If i have 15 or less bb. Otherwise I'll see a flop. If you get called at best you are in a coin flip. I'm not a big fan of risking my tournament on 2 cards, i try to avoid it.

Originally Posted by Tracid

tl;dr

I'm sorry but your low-echelon, transparent, flamebaity attempts at trolling are not only futile with me P.O. but are also, quite frankly, embarrassing.

I understand you've got some difficult stuff in your life you're trying to deal with at the moment but lashing out and trying to put others down isn't the way forward.

Try and act your age rather than your shoe size, hmmmm?

Bad read. You're way off on my 'range' there.

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

Bad read. You're way off on my 'range' there.

Try playing with your cards face down pal.

Also, next time you think about posting on one of my threads with no intention other than to troll/flame, perhaps reconsider.

Or maybe you like having your pants pulled down and getting spanked in public?

It does takes all sorts!