Spin & Go

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Miguelpaniura0893

Miguelpaniura0893

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Is this game mode profitable if I want to play at pokerstar? Some tips that you can give me to improve my game in these mini rooms ... I lose 7 out of 10 times and it is not profitable at all, I don't know if they have a good tip or simply stop playing that modality and focus on another that is simpler or less difficult .
 
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fundiver199

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I have never fallen in love with Spin n Gos, so I have not played near enough of them to know, what my long term winrate would be. But right off the bat there is reason to assume, that this game format is pretty difficult to beat. The reason is, these games are very fast, so on average you only get to play a few hands in each, which makes it difficult for skill edges to show. And in top of that you only start with 25BB, so stacks are very short as well, which makes it more difficult for your opponents to make substantial mistakes.

Some of these issue also apply to turbo or hyper turbo "normal" SnGs, but Spins have the additional problem, that somewhere around 2-3% of your buyin goes to pay for the "jackpot" multipliers, which are so unlikely, that you will probably never see them, even if you grind spin and gos for years on end. So to show a profit you need to overcome those 2-3% in top of the normal rake. It can be compared to live cash games, where many poker rooms have a "bad beat jackpot" and finance it by taking a drop like 5$ out of each pot. Great if you win the "bad beat jackpot", but for everyone else its money out of their pocket each and every session, they play. So barring the possibility it attracts more recreational players and make the games softer, it makes them more difficult to beat.

If you are going to play any kind of turbo or hyperturbo SnGs on any poker site, you really need to purchase PT4 and get a subscription to ICMizer, which is a total investment of around 200$. Then you should play only one format per session, and after each session you should import all the hand histories to ICMizer and let the program automatically analyse them. It will then list them with the hands on top, where it think, you made the most negative EV decisions by either calling bad, jamming bad or folding, when jamming would have been profitable. This will help you understand the push-fold game much better and find and plug your main leaks.
 
gery

gery

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First there is always the chance that you pick up a high wining price but most time only double or tribel your BuyIn and you only play versus two others, so fast earn or fast loose
 
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1nsomn1a

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Games with high variance. Don't risk all your chips in borderline situations, don't raise too big, don't go into big bluffs.
 
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BodyCount

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If you have the nerve to play big volume of spins you can get a decent ROI.
 
ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

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Games with high variance. Don't risk all your chips in borderline situations, don't raise too big, don't go into big bluffs.


I totally disagree with the soundbite above.
Variance is no different than in any other poker game. Variance is not at all related to the number of players or speed of a game.

Variance is related to hitting above or below a mathematical probability of having a winning hand given two hole cards against an opponent's hole cards. In the short run, variance is high, because probability for each event is independent of prior and future results. But over the long run, probability starts to align with the expected curve. That is why a solid strategy is required over the long term.

I also disagree with the don't risk your chips philosophy. To me, this sounds like the comments of someoneone who never reaches final table.

You should treat a Spin similar to reaching a final table and being dfown to three players -- with the exception that there are no points for second or third place. As such, you want to get your money in good when you have an e4dge.

Push/fold charts should be well understood before engaging in this. Jonathan Little's poker coaching site has some push/fold quizzes as do lots of poker software.

Again, I differ with the "don't raise too big" reccomendation. This is silly. If you have no intel on your opponents, maybe...but if Spins are going to become your go-to game, you will quickly get intel on your opponents. (IOf course, as recommedned by another, getting a HUD like Poker Tracker 4 is useful as it gives a lot of stats.You'll need to be aware that the stats of spin p[layers will vary significantly from stats from deep MTTs. And since there are only three players, VPIP will be much higher, PFR will too, and CBets >75%.

Re: don't do big bluffs: that all depends. If your intel shows the villain is a NIT who folds to significant aggression, big bets will be standard. However, if the person is a call station, you can leave bluffs out entirely. You cannot bluff a call station.

Other advice:

Spins are fun and exciting, but can be quite damaging to your play in other games. For example, if you play spins all the time, you will be playing more hands, betting more often, calling more often, and will face all-in situations frequently, where you'll need to be brave, especially when you have a premium starting hand. In MTT, you can safely pitch marginal hands into the muck, knowing that you ladder up with each person dropping from the tourney. In Spins, your play has to be highly adaptive, somewhat exploitative, and run much closer along the risk line.

With Spins, when you get heads up, it is common for one player to have a significant chip advantage over the other, simply because one knocked out the third player. Ideally, you want to be the player who does the knocking out.

From a profitability standpoint, Friday and Saturday nights are best for Spins. Lots of drunk people shoving shit and gambling flip after flip. You can exploit this by shoving your made hands early, or calling calling their shoves with speculative hands with an A or K.

Starting hands for spins are much wider than normal MTT's. If you try playing a nitty QQ or better strategy and you will quickly be blinded out. What is key with Spins is that you generate good value with stronger hands and bluffs, and you pay out, much thinner value when you're losing. Sure that is the same in every poker format, but due to the short paths to glory in spins, it is even more critical.

Depending on the opponents I meet, I like to start out tight, so that I have credibility when its heads up. Alternatively, flat out first-actor-aggression is often useful against more timid players, where you are prepared to fold when strength is shown back to you. You can frustrate a player by raising their limps to 3,4,5 or more and then crushing them on the flop with big raise. The risk of course is that you get trapped. But your notes should tell you who the trappy players are.

In general, I think up front aggression is more effective than being trappy. I had to laugh on Saturday when a trappy dude did not bet the river after hitting a straight flush on the river. It was clear they were calling my bets for a draw...and when the flush hit, it was like a flashing neon sign telling me he has called you to the river and both the flush and straight are possible...so I just check back and they got no more chips. Ha ha! Remember, if you are chasing a flush or straight, your oppoinent had better have sufficient chips to make it worthwhile. Spins don't really offer a great incentive to chase those monsters, so you might want to cut down your chasing a bit.

In terms of profitability, you basically need to win more than half the time to be profitable. Spins on pokerstars with $0.25 or $1 entry only pay 2x most of the time, with 3x a small portion of the time. Anything higher than that is rare enough to not factor it in to your general strategy. So if you play twice and win once -- most often you'll only be at break-even.

If you cannot do this, you are probably better off playing single table sit n gos, because at least there, 3 of 9 places are typically paid. Some folks find it easier to reach the final three of a full ring than to be the sole winner of a spin.

I think a full ring, single table sit n go is one of the best places for beginners to start because it gives them a small field and a possibility for regular small cashes. In the UK, there is a relatively small number of folks who play this...and you can quickly climb up the leaderboard.

Gotta run...

Cheers,
ObbleeXY
 
sharipov8090

sharipov8090

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These games are good only because through them you can qualify for a more expensive tournament, which I have already managed more than once.I don't see it as a discipline and I don't know any professionals in this field.More or less smacks of fortune.
 
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fundiver199

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Spins are fun and exciting, but can be quite damaging to your play in other games. For example, if you play spins all the time, you will be playing more hands, betting more often, calling more often, and will face all-in situations frequently, where you'll need to be brave, especially when you have a premium starting hand.

If you understand standard opening and defense ranges from different positions, then there is nothing "damaging" about praticing in short handed games. On the countrary its good practice for, when you are down to the last 2-3 players in MTTs or normal SnGs. There are two keys differences though, which might make Spins less ideal for practicing.

The first is the one, you touched on already. Spin are normally "winner takes all", so there is no ICM-considerations, and this certainly matter, if for instance one guy is down to 200 chips and the other two have 650 chips each. Then in a normal format the guys with 650 chips really dont want to be all-in against each other, whereas in a spin, thats completely fine, because the winner of that confrontation is now twice as likely to win the tournament, and there is no reward for finishing second anyway.

The other difference is the fact, the spins on PokerStars and probably most other sites as well dont have antes. This also influenze ranges and makes small blind limping much less relevant in Spins. So really Spins are not all that good for practicing 3-handed play, but they are kind of decent for practicing heads-up, because heads-up is always "winner takes all", and the ante is usually rather small online.

Now back to the question of, if they are profitable games, I have to say most likely not. Just for fun I played a 1$ Spin on PokerStars, and it lasted only 17 hands, before I had won it. So as I said already, you get a very limited amount of play for your rake money, and the rake is not quite low enough to sufficiently compensate for that in my opinion.
 
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