SnG Mistakes

Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
Here are alot of mistakes I see people make in the late stages of an SnG. I share them so that maybe those reading this can become better SnG players and maybe I'll stop experiencing less suckouts :p Let me know what you think here or improve on it yourself. I could use use some tips myself as I get more second/third/no place finishes rather than first places.

One mistake I see alot of players making is they overvalue good "flop-seeing" hands. Recently I've had pocket 9s and pocket 7s busted by JT offsuit and QJ offsuit. It's late in SnG and I shove all in and unless he has a big ace or pair I dont expect him to call especially since it would be for all his chips, which in both cases they called all in (around $1200 with $100/$50 blinds). I still don't understand it. Those are good hands to see a flop (early on) but you only have Jack high (or queen high). If you're up against any Ace, King, or pair you have to get lucky and draw out.

AJ may be a favorite over 72 but only a 60% favorite here. This is why I hate shoving in when I fear my opponent my call. Many times I've been busted by KQo (or suited). I of course had an ace with a good kicker. Most recently my opponent in the big blind called my all in with KQ and I had AQ. The blinds were $100/$50 and I had $900 and my opponent had $1400. He wasnt thinking that if he were to call and lose the pot he would only have $500 left. Even if King high was good in that spot he was only a 60% favorite. If he was going against an underpair he was about 50/50. His call was a mistake but I got rivered with a King. But the 60/40 rule is very important when you're facing an opponent shoves in before you

Give up drawing hands. The time for those was when the blinds were $10/$20. JTs QJs KQs are good hands but do not play them when the blinds are big unless you are the aggressor. I see alot of players limp in and then call 3-5x raises while they only have 10 to 15 BB left with these hands. KQ looks good but you are even dominated by A2. If you're playing a suited hand you already know that you will rarely flop the flush so that means you will have to put even more chips into the pot to see fourth and fifth street if you flopped four to the flush. You may even be put all in by your opponent and you've wasted a good amount of chips.

The main rule is when the blinds get at the $100/$50 or the $150/$75 level you have to change gears. If you want to see a flop you must be the first one into the pot. And in being the first into the pot you should raise it. You want to avoid flops and showdowns. You've got two options only. Raise or Fold. The call button should be avoided.

You got AJs in the SB and the guy on the button raises 4x. You have two options only. Raise or fold. You cannot call here. I normally lay it down if I feel like is going to call but a push here is not bad in my opinon. Not calling goes back to the fact that you probably are going to miss the flop and your opponent, whether he has a big hand or paired one of his cards on the flop, is probably going to make a continuation bet and you've wasted 4 big blinds.

Other tips
Pay attention to the people on your left. You dont want to steal blinds with a short stack on your left he could shove in anytime and then you're screwed or going to have to gamble with a J2.

Personally I fold the button, most of the time, I dont try and bluff after the flop. I dont try and steal from the button since it's the oldest trick in the book.

Don't try knocking people out, even if you're chip leader and have chips to spare. If you feel your cards are live so what... fold. You do not want to double people up. Would rather him take the $300 worth of blinds or do you want him to win a $1900 pot because you decided to try and eliminate someone?
 
Last edited:
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
In relation to your post and the examples, I have to ask, How many players left in the SnG?
If your talking 4 or less, then IMO, due to the more cards out there to be had, you really can't blame those who call with the cards mentioned above and that may be the reason that most don't make first in SnGs, the players that do make first are the ones that have successfully switched gears and seem to be those who hold face cards, suited or not and looks as if that is the gear to switch to as low pocket pairs will almost always get crushed if the set isn't hit.
I like this post.....+rep
 
Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
Generally 6 or less players

Here's the bad beat of the day

PokerStars Game #7650904057: Tournament #39132644, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2006/12/28 - 18:58:48 (ET)
Table '39132644 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: ethanconn (2125 in chips)
Seat 2: sbj24 (6805 in chips)
Seat 7: _Marklar_22 (4570 in chips)
ethanconn: posts the ante 25
sbj24: posts the ante 25
_Marklar_22: posts the ante 25
sbj24: posts small blind 200
_Marklar_22: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to _Marklar_22 [Kd Ah]
ethanconn: folds
sbj24: calls 200
_Marklar_22: raises 1200 to 1600
sbj24: calls 1200
*** FLOP *** [Ks 8d 9d]
sbj24: bets 5180 and is all-in
_Marklar_22: calls 2945 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Ks 8d 9d] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [Ks 8d 9d 6s] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sbj24: shows [Tc 6d] (two pair, Tens and Sixes)
_Marklar_22: shows [Kd Ah] (a pair of Kings)
sbj24 collected 9165 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9165 | Rake 0
Board [Ks 8d 9d 6s Td]
Seat 1: ethanconn (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sbj24 (small blind) showed [Tc 6d] and won (9165) with two pair, Tens and Sixes
Seat 7: _Marklar_22 (big blind) showed [Kd Ah] and lost with a pair of Kings
Most of my losses are no fault of my own... However I'm guilty of making bad calls when I know im beat. This of course is not one of them, I had a feeling i was beat, I put him on K8 because I saw him call my raise with J6 offsuit earlier, but when i saw his hand I thought I had him dead to a 7 until I saw the turn.. I knew it was coming too lol

But on a positive note I just finished ITM the last 3 sngs i played. First time ive been able to do that in a while
 
Last edited:
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
all I can say is WOW:eek: , T-6os, what a noob.
nothing you can do about a bad player.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
Ithink you have some flaws in your theory here.

a2 doesnt dominate kq it is a very slight favourite. I do find i beat fav hands a lot but this is because players play rag aces with a strength tht they dont deserve. The biggest mistake i see is playing far too tight around the button. If i meet players who r folding anything but aq or higher to a 4x blind iam in heaven because won blinds will always outway folds to reraises.

I often what ppl r thinking when they wonder why the "maniac" around the button so often win. sng play is less about cards and more about position and aggression. I play a tight game in the early blind levels as you cannot win here only lose. I much prefer to sit tight and build a tight image and get reads on the table then when i change gears my image will allow me to get away with a lot to players who reconize my image but even when i am put down as loose i can counter this by making my bets uncallable. Reads have a lot to do with this as if you have been paying attention you will know what will scare players out of a loose call and who not to mess with coz of loose calls.

I am the opposite to you and i dont get many 3rds at all because i either have chips goiing 3 way or i am out which to a tag player would seem wierd but if you are winning more thn 2nd or 3rd or lower it makes more sense because a 3rd doesnt pay for any as you only get buy in + 2/3rds buy in and 2nd only gets buy in plus 1 2/3rds buy in whilst a win yields buy in plus 3 buy ins.

If you play for the money at all costs you prob wont do amazingly in profit whilst if you take risks and place 1st more the numbers stack up better for you. I would much prefer to go out out of the money in a 5050 shot than sneak into 3rd because when i win the 5050 shot i will more than likely go on to win which is better in the long run. To play this strategy sure there will be bigger variances in your bnkroll but i have found tht i have managed to maintain a good roi% and subsequently a good profit

Any how i have rambled on enough would appreciate some response on this good or bad l8ter:D :D
 
Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
Most of my ITM finishes are second place. My Heads up play needs work.

I find that I usually do not play a single hand until the blinds are about the $100/$50 level, at which point my chip stack is sitting around $1300. Think about it, You have AK in middle position. Blinds are $10/$20 and you raise to $80. Everyone will probably fold and you won a measley $30 pot.

Blinds at $100/$50 you raise to $300 and win a $150 pot. Increase my stack to $1450 instead of $1330. And that's also $150 less for the other players.

One thing I never do is raise with Ace rag. I would rather raise with 75 than A 8. Because if I am called it's much better to tell if you have the best hand or not. For instance a few days ago I raised with 75 of clubs. My opponent must have put me on AQ or AK because he only called with JJ. Flop came 645 the 6 and 4 were clubs. He bet about 900. I decided to push here with my pair of fives and open ended straight flush draw. I had fold equity on him plus I couldn't figure out what he had, I thought he may have been bluffing or may have had pocket 9s or something. Either way I figure I was the favorite to an over pair. Alas he calls but I hit the straight flush on the river with the 3 of clubs.

If I decide to play a hand in the early stages of the SnG I will limp in and rarely raise unless I have AA KK QQ or JJ. But hands like AQ or AJ I just limp. When the blinds get big I start getting aggressive and no matter which cards I hold, unless it's AA or KK, I want to win it without a showdown or a flop.

If you happen to have a good chip lead do not battle the other chip leader unless you have to. Back when I used to play the $100 buy-ins, my last one to play infact, I went out on the bubble with Queens. We both had about $5000 in chips. There were four of us left the other two were really short stacked. My fellow $5K guy raised it 3x and I pushed with QQ and he called with AK. I got knocked out on the bubble. All in all I think his play was a mistake. You dont want to race for all your chips when you are the chip leader.
 
Last edited:
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

Legend
tht is a good point and chipstacks do have a lot to do with it i dont play at those levels which is prob why my way works :D
 
Marklar

Marklar

Rock Star
I only played at that level because I had a really good week in Omaha cash games :p

That was on Fulltilt but I have discovered that pokerstars has a much better SnG setup than Fulltilt does. Their blind structures are nicer. I like the Turbos better on PS also. Even though they cost more.

Ive been laid off so I withdrew most of my money but have to keep busy while I wait for phone calls so I play $10 SnGs now :p
 
Last edited:
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
A lot of the OP is very sound advice. A couple of issues...

You got AJs in the SB and the guy on the button raises 4x. You have two options only. Raise or fold. You cannot call here. I normally lay it down if I feel like is going to call but a push here is not bad in my opinon. Not calling goes back to the fact that you probably are going to miss the flop and your opponent, whether he has a big hand or paired one of his cards on the flop, is probably going to make a continuation bet and you've wasted 4 big blinds.
By the time you get to 50/100+ unless you're in a very unusual stack situation your two options when faced with a raise are push or fold.
Positional considerations postflop become meaningless when you are push.folding preflop, of course. Whether to push or not in your example depends largely on your fold equity - though if you are shortstacked to the point that you are giving villain better than 2:1 on a call then the time may be right for you to take a gamble anyway - you have to pick spots to keep your stack size reasonable, you simply cannot let yourself get into situations where you're so shortstacked that whenever you do push you have no fold equity.

Personally I fold the button, most of the time, I dont try and bluff after the flop. I dont try and steal from the button since it's the oldest trick in the book.
This is a bit too general. Say you're on the bubble with 5k in chips and the 3 other players have 2k chips, blinds 100/200. If it's folded to you on the button you can feasibly push with any two, simply because the blinds are not going to call without a monster (unless you have a read on either of them as an idiot). If you're on the bubble with one of the 2k stacks and the BB is the 5k stack, of course you're going to fold your J2s etc.

Don't try knocking people out, even if you're chip leader and have chips to spare. If you feel your cards are live so what... fold. You do not want to double people up. Would rather him take the $300 worth of blinds or do you want him to win a $1900 pot because you decided to try and eliminate someone?
Again, sound on the surface but a little too general. If you're getting 3:1 on a call and it won't cripple you it's often best to take your A4 or QJ, hope your cards are live, play pot odds and call. If you can take a hit and still be chip leader, you can simply go back to stealing pots and abusing the bubble situation if you lose.

Stefanicov, unlike MTT bubbles, SNG bubbles are invariably about making the money, simply because the difference between 4th and 3rd is about 180% ROI (payout dependent obv but this isn't far off), which isn't much less than the difference between 3rd and 1st. Look at a big MTT and the difference in ROI between bubbling and just squeaking into the money is about 130%, but the difference between just squeaking ITM and getting first is many hundred %.

If you're in a position whereby you can abuse the bubble (chip leader vs 3 identical-stacked weak players) then fine, but there's no need to go crazy and push your 54s for 10BBs into the chip leader because you want to 'play aggressive on the bubble'. There are many occasions where you should be happy squeaking into the money in SNGs.

...and joose, we know. We also know you sometimes enjoy calling bigstack allins with absolute garbage too. :eek:
 
Top