Short stack strategy

[houtlijm]

in that spot i actually would have used my time bank time and time again. although you really wanted to push, i suggest at least 77+ or A10s+..

 

[Arjonius]

I know open shoving 11BB with KQs from any position is more than fine though, so nice hand unlucky.

^This^

If you find yourself in an unusual situation where you feel it's especially important to min-cash and are willing to give up tournament equity to do so, I can understand folding; e.g. you're a micro-player who sattied into a major tournament where just min-cashing would mean huge money relative to your BR. But tournament equity-wise, folding would still be sub-optimal.

 

[Tiltt2424]

Made a similar shove with Ax and got folds this time. This forum has helped already thank you!

 

[ccocco]

would have to see that face of the tournament were as if you were near the bubble, if you're with a few blind and you can get to go you should expect strong hands if you're on the bubble with 10 blind, it was good to go allin with KQ that seems to me .. I have done the same

 

[alex5207]

I was playing the short stack late in a MTT. I was 8 spots from the cash and i had a little over 11 BBs with 11,200. There was also a 100 ante. My question is: Is it correct to just open shove with really any above average hand pf? I shoved with KQs and lost to Ax. What is the weakest hand I should have shoved with?

KQ is not good hand to shove, and worse in early position, actually with your stack, more than 10 bb, i would fold this hand, still has more than 20 hands to play and just 8 places to make itm, so no hurry here, i think it wasn´t the best decision,

if you were less than 3bb, then you could shove but you weren´t so bad, maybe if yoou fold every hand you were made itm

Personally I would shove this hand with 11bbs from middle to late position, I might drop it in early position though. It's a good hand and you are flipping with all pocket pairs except QQ,KK,AA, and the only Ax hands you are a dog against are AQ and AK.

I would have to agree with the above. KQ is not a good hand to shove with in early position, but as mentioned by the above posters you are not extremely short - with 11bb you can afford to wait for a better spot. The reason for this being that any big stack will see you as desperate and probably call you with any ace making you a dog. You could've maybe limped in and then folded to a raise.

 

[rock0001]

maybe you can try to wait until the bubble is burst, because as you said there were 8 players left in order to be in the money, so if i were in your place i would consider playing a tight game assuming i still having 11 bb, which isnt that bad either at that point, and try to be ITM. i will only shove with very good hands, even better than kq suit, however you push with an acceptable hand, considering that kq is quite strong,especially if no one enters to the pot and you are in late position. Try not to go all in with low or middle pairs like 77 or 66 in early or middle positions because if someone calls in the best scenario you would be in a coin filp situation, and with 2 callers you chances of winnings would be less than 50%, making that play - ev over the long run.

 

[FAOMaalik]

with 11 BB I'm not at the shoving stage yet personally unless I'm JJ+, AQs+ especially on the bubble.

Once I hit 7BB i start shoving wider but still 99+, A9s+, AQ+ though irl I tend to start panic shoving any broadway at this point

If i hit 5 then I tend to default to a top 51% shove

3.5 it's any two cards and hope.

 

[alex5207]

maybe you can try to wait until the bubble is burst, because as you said there were 8 players left in order to be in the money, so if i were in your place i would consider playing a tight game assuming i still having 11 bb, which isnt that bad either at that point, and try to be ITM. i will only shove with very good hands, even better than kq suit, however you push with an acceptable hand, considering that kq is quite strong,especially if no one enters to the pot and you are in late position. Try not to go all in with low or middle pairs like 77 or 66 in early or middle positions because if someone calls in the best scenario you would be in a coin filp situation, and with 2 callers you chances of winnings would be less than 50%, making that play - ev over the long run.

Unless one or both of the villains has higher pocket pairs than you it wouldn't be -ev in the long run, it would be +ev. With pocket pairs vs 4 overcards you would have more than 1/3 equity in the pot which would make it +ev comparing to the pot odds + the fold equity you have when shoving + blinds and antes assuming the callers aren't in the blinds and it's mid/late stage of tourney as OP describes. But that doesn't nescisarily make it the correct play if you take the ICM into consideration.

 

[Tiltt2424]

with 11 BB I'm not at the shoving stage yet personally unless I'm JJ+, AQs+ especially on the bubble.

Once I hit 7BB i start shoving wider but still 99+, A9s+, AQ+ though irl I tend to start panic shoving any broadway at this point

If i hit 5 then I tend to default to a top 51% shove

3.5 it's any two cards and hope.

There was a little more pressure on me because of the ante, which really gave me more incentive to shove since winning the pot right there would have increased my stack by about 20%. Do the antes then broaden your range of shoving hands?

 

[alex5207]

There was a little more pressure on me because of the ante, which really gave me more incentive to shove since winning the pot right there would have increased my stack by about 20%. Do the antes then broaden your range of shoving hands?

They do to me. If you're shortstack, especially really deep in tourneys (even better if you're playing FR) you can sometimes double just by stealing blinds and antes - You're likely to get called though, because with so few blinds left you have almost no fold equity

 

[aznman08]

They do to me. If you're shortstack, especially really deep in tourneys (even better if you're playing FR) you can sometimes double just by stealing blinds and antes - You're likely to get called though, because with so few blinds left you have almost no fold equity

This. As blinds increase, stack sizes begin to go down making stealing a tool used to maintain your stack. Nearing the bubble, there are people who are looking to cash and are more willing to give up hands easily. you just have to get lucky in these situations.

 

[sleepymike]

This is the absolute opposite of how you should be playing nearing the bubble. This is one of the most profitable stages of a tournament for the big stacks, they just hammer relentlessly on the short stacks with a wide range of hands and the short stacks just fold themselves into the money and leave themselves no FE. Why we're playing tournaments to just cash is beyond me, unless of course you're playing in a tournament that's massively out of your BR which you won a seat to - I've never understood this logic. Sitting for hours to min cash is soul crushing, I'd rather bust earlier to have a chance of running deep.

Making a profitable shove isn't stupid play and I'd always opt for a profitable shove if and if it causes me to bubble, that's fine.

Technically, if it's not a stupid play than my friends quote would be considered and ignored. So then what constitutes a stupid play. OP has 11BB, 8 to get to cash, if he's/she's in EP with large stacks who've shown a willingness to call just about any SS, I think this would be a fold ( the KQ hand as stated by OP), LP with all folding to you is a different situation.

If there is very few to bubble, I believe you have a better chance at a better opportunity by waiting if you're in EP. Being in this position does not in anyway imply that this was your goal all along, - just min cashing.
How you got in this position is a different topic, but once there how are you to handle it, is the question.
One upside is that once the bubble is burst there is a % of the remaining players who will go allin with ATC in an attempt to gain back FE or bust. These players increase your payoff, and if the situation presents itself, allows you to get in good with a solid hand.
Again, this is not to be your goal from the beginning, but something to think about once you do indeed find yourself in this position.
Sorry, I do tend to ramble at times.

 

[matiusaa]

i wiuld prefer to fold KQ when you get called, you will go to a flip most of ti
es, and others you will be dominated, so its not worth it. i would shove qith it if i were in the button or cutoff, but in the oter positions i would fold

 

[Tiltt2424]

Insightful responses, my short stack play has improved just from reading your guys' thoughts. Thanks!

 

[alex5207]

Yes it is much better move, sir !

Agreed ^

 

[Tiltt2424]

I see now why it is a much better shove.

 

[rumsey182]

I was playing the short stack late in a MTT. I was 8 spots from the cash and i had a little over 11 BBs with 11,200. There was also a 100 ante. My question is: Is it correct to just open shove with really any above average hand pf? I shoved with KQs and lost to Ax. What is the weakest hand I should have shoved with?

what position are you in? are there many short stacks left in the tourny?

Any position KQs is a profitable and unexploitable open shove

you should work on your push fold game i suggest sng wiz

 

[IPlay]

With an M of less than 5 the shove is not bad, you just got unlucky that it was called and you were beat. You had to make a move and it just so happened someone called with a better hand, can't let yourself get blinded out.

Technically you could of folded and saw about 40 more hands(Unless it was turbo then maybe only 25-30 hands) but with your chips going down every hand you are losing value and who is to say in those next 40 hands you get better than KJs anyway. It is a very tough spot deep into a tourney.

Also as your chip stack decreases, the chances of someone calling just to knock you out increases so you can't make a move unless you actually have a real hand.

I like your play and probably would of made the same move myself. I personally like open shoving pre with A10+ or a pocket pair myself, but in your situation you got to act.

 

[Arjonius]

you should work on your push fold game i suggest sng wiz

This is an area where many low-level players can improve, myself still included even though I've been working on this for a while and would like to think I've advanced from where I used to be. I found there are two aspects to this. One is understanding better when I should be pushing and with with what range. The other is actually pulling the trigger, which doesn't always come easily since the math tells me to shove wider than I naturally would.

 

[Rldetheflop]

This is an area where many low-level players can improve, myself still included even though I've been working on this for a while and would like to think I've advanced from where I used to be. I found there are two aspects to this. One is understanding better when I should be pushing and with with what range. The other is actually pulling the trigger, which doesn't always come easily since the math tells me to shove wider than I naturally would.

I know for me personally it took a long time before I realized just how wide you have to shove sometimes and that realization is probably what improved my game more than anything else,

 

[sunburnt2k11]

there's not much of a short stack strategy... 1. tourney... shove all in with the best hand you think... 2. tourney... shove in if you have more than four times the blinds 3... cash... get more chips lol

 

[alex5207]

You probably should consider the difference between waiting for a good spot and waiting for a good hand - ofcourse if you have JJ+ open-shoving from any position would probably be profitable, but it's more likely to be +ev to shove a hand like T9s or JTs or even worse, from the button, than KQ would be from early position. Reason for this is that you're a dog against any ace and if there are other shortstacks at the table, one or more people might find it fine to call your shove with Ax which would put you in a spot where you don't want to be - If there is more than a handful people to act after you, chances are a shortstack with ax will call to try and double up or a big stack with pocketpairs or ax will call you simply because they get the right odds. You're already a slight dog against a pocket pair and if big stacks don't take you for a bigger pocket pair than they're holding themselves, they'd be happy to flip with you, because they get like 1,5:1 odds because of the blinds and antes. Actually I'd prefer fold the KQ here and then shove any two cards when you get position in an unraised pot

 

[Arjonius]

Actually I'd prefer fold the KQ here and then shove any two cards when you get position in an unraised pot

Since you're assuming the short stacks will call with Ax, you also have to assume they're also going to push with it when they have the chance to open in front of you. This decreases the probability that you'll find yourself in LP in an unraised pot. Plus you're blinding off while you wait.

And when you do get this situation, you have ATC, a much wider range. Plus, while there are fewer players still to act, they're likely to call at least somewhat wider than they would against an EP shove.

And if you're folding KQ in EP, what's left as your shoving range from those seats? Probably too tight considering both your stack and that you're just about to be in the blinds.