Rebuy and/or late registration tourneys

[thebigdawg]

I'm not sure you're speaking of the same kind of rebuy tournaments we are. The tournaments we discuss start in a rebuy period that lasts a finite amount of time so there is never an option to rebuy in the middle of the tournament. You'll also never see one of these lose 80% of its field before the rebuy period is over. That would just be absurd...and a huge profit to anyone that just spent the $$ to stick around.

What Bon meant is that if you start the tournament and stick to a 1500 chip stack when you are allowed to rebuy to 3k people would assume you're bad.

Yeah I think im thinking of something little different, I apologize.

 

[bonflizubi]

Because you're spewing money when you can wait for better spots?

No, because I have the pot equity to call profitably. And even if i am a little below proper pot odds it is worth the gamble. If it is 4ways I need 25% equity here... and likely am getting pretty close to it. Even against a bunch of overpairs.

No you don't? When you hit final table average will be like 1 million each. Taking gambles at the beginning in 3/4 way pots with hands that are never going to have decent equity against ridic ranges isn't sensible - they are spewer gamblers, wait til you've got a half decent hand and iso them HU...

you don't get it. The power of wielding a monster stack, if you know how to use it makes it worth a marginal EV gamble.

It doesn't mean everyone should make the same choices - and it depends on what you are seeing people shove as well.

 

[bonflizubi]

What does it matter how many chips you have at in the early stages anyway? If you are chip leader with 20k and 2nd place has 5k, that's great, but your effective stack at most is 5k.

It matters when the avg stack post addon is say 10k, and you have the CL at your table and he has 50k.

When you get AA in vs his KK do you want to have a 10k stack? or a 50k stack?

Rhetorical question but important point...

 

[bonflizubi]

So let me get this straight, lets say I play in a re-buy/add on tourney....170 people get in, we are down to the last 20 and i'm in with my original BI then people know that I am bad?

No, They will take advantage during rebuy period. Assuming they are good enough to know you are using suboptimal strategy. Post addon, noone knows why your stack is the size it is (unless it's obv you skipped the addon)

I don't want too play marginal hands early and if it don't work out then just re-buy. I think that is a donk logic, I have played 3 re-buy/add-on tourneys in the last 5 days, 2 of them I cashed in and I never once re-bought (I did add-on in all.)

Usually in the early stages in these tourneys on Carbon all you have to do is play tight and wait till you have a good hand, and when you do just push all in and a donk will call with something weak. I think you have to wait till you get put out to re-buy in the Carbon tourneys, you can't just add your stack during the tourney. I don't know if you can just add to your stack in the middle of a tourney on a tourney on other sites like PS and Fultilt.

If your table is tight, then get it in good, gambling would be dumb. BUt not getting the immediate rebuy is truly an awful mistake.

Almost all sites let you purchase a single rebuy once you are below your initial start stack -as well as the double rebuy of you get felted. EDIT: During the initial rebuy period only, of course

...

 

[bonflizubi]

Not harsh so much as wrong.

1)
Let's start by touching on ICM. Obviously you don't apply ICM to your early/mid-game play as it matters more for big money jumps/flat payout structures. I'm not worried about where/how to apply it, I'm more interested about how they determine ICM.

Standard ICM modeling essentially assumes that your equity for finishing the tournament in first is directly related to your chip stack. So your odds of taking first at any given time, according to ICM, is 'stack size/total chips in tournament'. From there they use some recursive math to work out odds of taking 2nd/3rd/etc., do some averaging and voila: you get your $EV.

The point is that as far as ICM is concerned your odds of finishing 1st are directly proportional to your stack size at any given time. So having more chips = better odds of first. If I have double your stack, ICM assumes I'm twice as likely to take 1st.

2)
Considering you're coming from cash poker I really can't understand how you undervalue stack size so much. There's a reason players hated short-stackers and 'non-max buyin' is often a signal of fishiness.

In these rebuy events we're discussing many people play a donkey style early and many stacks wind up being large. Thus, the average stack size is in the range of 40-60 bb's for most of the early/middle game.

Having more chips and deeper stacks means you have more options open to you. There is more merit to running a multi street bluff because you have the stacks to apply appropriate pressure and the opponents have the chips to fold. You get to play wider in LP because you actually have the implied odds to flat with suited connectors and the like. Etc.


I'm not sure you're speaking of the same kind of rebuy tournaments we are. The tournaments we discuss start in a rebuy period that lasts a finite amount of time so there is never an option to rebuy in the middle of the tournament. You'll also never see one of these lose 80% of its field before the rebuy period is over. That would just be absurd...and a huge profit to anyone that just spent the $$ to stick around.

What Bon meant is that if you start the tournament and stick to a 1500 chip stack when you are allowed to rebuy to 3k people would assume you're bad.

Everything here is spot on, except this: "What Bon meant is that if you start the tournament and stick to a 1500 chip stack when you are allowed to rebuy to 3k people would assume you're bad." Add "because it's proven to not be optimal strategy."

 

[bonflizubi]

If my edge is a large amount, getting into marginal spots with gambles surely doesn't make any sense because my edge will allow me to get into better, more +EV spots later in the tournament.

If you have an edge to begin with, you have an even bigger edge with a bigger stack. Your edge with a smallish stack will be significantly reduced vs anyone else of somewhat worse or better skill, if they have a big stack.

Your edge is reduced also because you cant stack the fish with the monster stack who wants to spew 100bb with top pair and you only have 40.

This mistake is the same as not calling an allin the first hand of a tournament, even a wsop ME if you have QQ and see that the guy who shoved allin with an open shove has AK. You must call here.

No-ones edge is that big that they can not try and get as many chips as they can in rebuy period. Whether they choose to spend more is their decision. However, the bigger your edge is, teh more you should be willing to spend for a stack, since you are more likely to go deep anyway.

But, if we haven't convinced you yet, we won't be able to.

Edit- missed this one:

yourself several times by talking about tables full of people happy to gamble - when a table is loose, you don't adjust by becoming loose and gambling with them, you adjust by tightening up and value betting a wider range knowing you'll get paid off more.

Logic fails here when the case is that people are getting it all in preflop. And if it's a 1r or 3r or 5r say and its a loose table, the money is all getting in preflop pretty often. Just range people and play accordingly.

 

[Pascal-lf]

This mistake is the same as not calling an allin the first hand of a tournament, even a WSOP ME if you have QQ and see that the guy who shoved allin with an open shove has AK. You must call here.

Not sure how this is relevant in any way seeing as we get our money in ahead, whereas taking 3/4way gambles with marginal hands is likely not +EV a large amount of the time?

 

[bonflizubi]

Not sure how this is relevant in any way seeing as we get our money in ahead, whereas taking 3/4way gambles with marginal hands is likely not +EV a large amount of the time?

If people are jamming marginal hands (and they often do) Calling with a suited connector 4 or 5 ways isn't a real -EV gamble. Again, I'm not saying that it's always the right play. Just that I am willing to gamble because the 5x stack is worth $6 to me easily.

I might well call 4 way allin with 99 as well in these things. You really need to range what others are shoving and figure out whether you have the pot odds or not. Since you can rebuy, all that matters are the pot odds. And if you are willing to spend, you can choose to take a -EV spot. You don't have to. I am not going to call with 72. But I will take a slightly -EV spot because it's worth it to me. You don't have to.

What I guess I am saying is that at many lose tables, not tight ones, you may well be over-valuing the quality of holdings form teh others. I think watching what people shove/call with in rebuy period is even more critical than notes elsewhere. All that matters is that you be ahead of their range if HU.. or getting the right odds to call if multi-way.

Do you want to call the NIT with a marginal hand? no. THe guy who is shoving 50% of hands? Yes.

 

[xdeucesx]

bonz, this is all awesome tourny advice, I'll be applying this to my next couple I play

 

[Lofwyr]

Now I'll happily admit I don't know ICM, but I have common sense. Simple ICM doesn't take into account the huge edge any half-decent player has over the rest of the field, and as such, I would assume my chance of winning is definitely higher than someone with 5 times as many chips as me who is playing like a crazy maniac.

If my edge is a large amount, getting into marginal spots with gambles surely doesn't make any sense because my edge will allow me to get into better, more +EV spots later in the tournament.

The stuff I'm talking about only applies during the rebuy period. I'm not a lunatic most of the time. Actually I'm something of a nit in the early/early-mid game usually. To some extent I'm trying to loosen up a tad but that's a different thread...

I brought up ICM merely to illustrate that it's reasonable to model your odds of winning on your chip-stack.

You have to consider the rebuy period as more of an isolated event and not part of your tournament. People play very differently; taking slightly bad gambles isn't a huge error because the tournament hasn't really started yet and there is no threat of elimination. Thus there is no reason to wait and be terribly patient.

I'm not too thrilled at buying in 10 times to one of these things...I limit my gambles somewhat in terms of starting hands. However, if you have the proper BR for it and the necessary skills you might be willing to take big -EV spots just to get a huge stack. Some top players do/did just that. Hell, go find some old BeLOWaBOVe videos if you want to see a high-calibur player go for a huge stack during the rebuy period.

 

[bonflizubi]

You have to consider the rebuy period as more of an isolated event and not part of your tournament. People play very differently; taking slightly bad gambles isn't a huge error because the tournament hasn't really started yet and there is no threat of elimination. Thus there is no reason to wait and be terribly patient.

However, if you have the proper BR for it and the necessary skills you might be willing to take big -EV spots just to get a huge stack. Some top players do/did just that. Hell, go find some old BeLOWaBOVe videos if you want to see a high-calibur player go for a huge stack during the rebuy period.

Nice cliffs. well said.