is this the perfect double or nothing strategy?

[IamRude]

Do you guys play the turbo or regular DoN's?

 

[kmixer]

Do you guys play the turbo or regular DoN's?

I play the turbos because I feel the rake is fair for them. If there is a reason I should be playing the regular ones instead for the extra rake I hope someone will let me know.

 

[darkassassin89]

Well is the rake in DON's worth grinding it? I mean u have to win 6 outa 10 to even stay above the rake and make a small profit. Thoughts?

 

[IamRude]

Well is the rake in DON's worth grinding it? I mean u have to win 6 outa 10 to even stay above the rake and make a small profit. Thoughts?

True for $1.

As you get higher in stakes and increase the amount of games for
$5 and $10 you have to win 13/25 or 26/50.
I think this is absolutely achievable to get higher than 26 wins if you play 50 a day.

guerilla math here but

For example you win 35/50 ($10 DoN)
$700(total wins) - $500(total loss) - $20(rake) = $180 profit
please correct me if im wrong.

 

[IamRude]

Also, what do you guys use for opponent stats now?

sharkscope has there stupid limit of 100games now, and OPR doesnt do lowfield MTT's anymore.

I think its extremely important in these games to know if your opponents are winning or loosing players.

 

[Corey]

Slight tangent-- maybe it's just me but PLO DON's don't seem very profitable. Considering the huge edge in equity you need to make calls in NLHE DON's, how can it ever be profitable to call in PLO?

Also no one uses M for SNG's, it's about the BB's baby.

I use M in Double Up SNG's. On Merge there are 2 types of double ups, one with antes and one without (I have no idea why this is, I can just tell you from experience that it is true. One game has 100 big blind and no antes, and the other one has 100 big blind and 10 antes).

So when there are antes, the initial pot is bigger, and I'm more likely to want to steal it.

Also M tells you how many trips you have left, and that can be helpful in gauging the probabillty of getting dealt a decent hand.

hey guys i recently stummbled across this DoN strategey which ive had mixed results with after reading it, it makes so much sence and it more or less does work but i wanna hear what you people think of it its too long to paste so heres the link.


dont be put off by its lenth its an interesting read
http://www.onlinefreeplaypoker.com/double-up-or-nothing-sng-poker-strategy/

tell me what you think , thanks

Well, I have played over a thousand DU's (Double Up's) at both the $5 (winning 61% of games) and $10 (winning 59% of games) levels on Merge, and my strategy is far looser than this. I'm not playing the $100 levels, though. I don't think this strategy (the one in the original post) is going to work at the levels I play, and it seems kind of out dated.

One glaring difference:

I raise with AK under the gun at the 10/20 levels to 60. I then tend to check call or check fold, or bet if I hit the flop. I am more than capable of getting away from a crappy hand. He says to only play PP's at the first 3 blind levels.

Also his play of 3 betting the top 50% of his hands to people who are open minraising on the button is extremely dangerous in my opinion. I hardly ever 3 bet steal. Of course I 3 bet push my big hands most of the time (but am very careful with AQ).

I open push by the time the big blind gets to 100 for the most part, but I do mix in min raises a lot.

These games are getting harder as people adjust to them. If you find yourself getting to the big blind levels of 400, you really are in big trouble. Also if you are still 10 handed by the time the blinds get to 150 you know it is going to be a tough game - but at the same time, it probably indicates a lot of tight players in that particular game, and you may be able to steal more and resteal effectively.

Some have complained the article is too long, well, real strategy is complex, and way more complex than 7 pages. Just listing all the pre flop scenarios is difficult (as some posters have noticed. What to do with 1, 2, or 3 limpers? What to do if there is a min raise UTG, a caller, and another minraise, etc, etc). You will be well served in thinking about each hand , and pay attention to the opponent's stacks! (That part of the guide was totally right - target the medium stacks, but don't be afraid to target short stacks with good hands either)

So my main complaint is I think he is way too tight in the early blind levels. When I first started playing DU's I was just as tight if not tighter, and the problem was non stop stack attrition. If you get to a below average stack, then you lose out on your fold equity, and can't steal the blinds without showdowns (which is the desired result; avoid showdowns if possible). Also, if you are too tight people may run all over you! So I think you have to take this strategy with a skeptical point of view.

Good to see that some are havnig success with this strategy. Not pkaying too much Holdem at the moment so I am not even gonna bother trying anymore for the time being.

Wonder how any of this will work out for th Triple or nothing games that Absolute Poker is gonna start having.

Wow. I am SO ON THAT game when it comes out. I'm sure double up strategy can be bent to fit with triple up games!

Since Absolute Poker has 9 seat tables, and Merge has 10 seat tables, double ups were impossible on Absolute Poker. But not triple ups as 9/3=3

How about a quadruple up; top 2 get paid out of 8? Doesn't Absolute Poker have 8 seat games?

 

[cjatud2012]

I use M in Double Up SNG's. On Merge there are 2 types of double ups, one with antes and one without (I have no idea why this is, I can just tell you from experience that it is true. One game has 100 big blind and no antes, and the other one has 100 big blind and 10 antes).

So when there are antes, the initial pot is bigger, and I'm more likely to want to steal it.

Also M tells you how many trips you have left, and that can be helpful in gauging the probabillty of getting dealt a decent hand.

No offense, but M is gross for STT's. If there are antes, I'm much rather figure out what the "effective BB" is. I.e., if blinds are t100/t200/t25 and we're 6 handed, the initial pot is t450, there for the effective blinds are t150/t300. I prefer this way as I feel for a SNG it is much simpler to determine the correct course of action from the number of BB's you have.

 

[kmixer]

Wow. I am SO ON THAT game when it comes out. I'm sure double up strategy can be bent to fit with triple up games!

Since Absolute Poker has 9 seat tables, and Merge has 10 seat tables, double ups were impossible on Absolute Poker. But not triple ups as 9/3=3

How about a quadruple up; top 2 get paid out of 8? Doesn't Absolute Poker have 8 seat games?

Yeah I am really psyched for the Triple or Nothing games. I only hope they are going to have PLO as well as HE

 

[kmixer]

Well is the rake in DON's worth grinding it? I mean u have to win 6 outa 10 to even stay above the rake and make a small profit. Thoughts?

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tou...ble-nothing-strategy-186476/post-1602646.html

 

[cjatud2012]

Yeah I am really psyched for the Triple or Nothing games. I only hope they are going to have PLO as well as HE

I still fail to see how a PLO DON could be a good game to play due to ICM. To make calls in the late game, you need a huge edge in equity, which you never have in PLO, so you literally could never call in some situations.

 

[acky100]

Can anyone explain to me how that shoving table he links us too works? or is there a better shoving table i should be using? thanks

 

[IamRude]

My results following a modified version of this strategy:

Played a total of 50 DoN's at $5. Winning 27/50.

I started off with a heater going for 10 straight, and then I guess variance hit me. I lost 7 straight and it was really affected my game. I couldnt get another strong streak going. I started tilting hard and got frustrated cause I got sucked out and called in some terrible spots by other players.

Pretty much just ended up breaking even for the rest and I felt like I wasted a lot of time.

Reviewed my hands from the first 10 games. I played really systematically and carefully, but I havent been able to emulate it (actually folded Q's one time, and can't see myself doing that again lol). I know was considering stacksizes alot more for the first 10 games.

I find that I am having great success with stealing with trash on the button/cutoff (94o etc.), but every time (meaning like 7times) I actually have a hand thats AQ+ in the same position and I am SS with 6 players remaining I automatically get called and sucked out. KK's < Arag, QQ'S < KT, AQ < KT etc., GG me.

edit: yes I know the last paragraph is ridiculous but as you can probably tell, I am still tilting pretty bad.

 

[Corey]

Yeah I am really psyched for the Triple or Nothing games. I only hope they are going to have PLO as well as HE

You got me so excited, I did a google search for it. And it led to an absolutepoker.com web page describing said 3x ups - but they have not been implemented yet on AP as far as I can tell. Is UB going to also have them?

 

[Corey]

No offense, but M is gross for STT's. If there are antes, I'm much rather figure out what the "effective BB" is. I.e., if blinds are t100/t200/t25 and we're 6 handed, the initial pot is t450, there for the effective blinds are t150/t300. I prefer this way as I feel for a SNG it is much simpler to determine the correct course of action from the number of BB's you have.

Yeah, I've come up with the same idea before on my own, but never applied it as it is too much computation for me at the table in real time. Figuring out "B" (# of big blinds) and "M" (you know what this is) takes up enough mental energy!

Yeah, I got turned onto M through Dan Harrington's NLHE tourney books. I think whatever system you use, is fine, as long as you set good hand ranges for the appropriate values.

 

[Pascal-lf]

All HUDs should have M and BB figures, no need to work it out

 

[k1ngd0nk]

All HUDs should have M and BB figures, no need to work it out

Stars might implement an option where you can choose to see your $ in BB (being cash or stt/mtt)

 

[okeedokalee]

Do they have DoNs on FTP.Had a look, no luck.This post is useful for heads up play also. thanks to OP.

 

[suit2please]

(actually folded Q's one time, and can't see myself doing that again lol)

I have folded Ks, Qs, Js, plenty of times preflop in these. I don't think I have found a situation where Ive folded Aces preflop, but if I was sitting on 4k and a shove crazy monkey sitting with a little more on the bubble shoved I would almost insta fold it. There comes a point when even an 80/20 isn't +EV.

 

[straytfrush]

The main problem I have here is the shoving with anything from SB or button at later stages. I believe the argument goes shoving with J2 or 83 as long as you are in position is vital because you need to be able to survive being blinded down.

However, people are not as EV conscious as we are and will call these all ins with Kjo Q10 A rag quite frequently. Hell, they shouldnt technically even be calling with AK because they'll lose maybe 30% of the time.

However, I've found especially in the turbos people are willing to call you with these marginal hands which is devastating when you've put your whole stack on the line. Ideally they should recognize the need to almost never call, this is far from the truth and I wonder about the validity of this part o the strategy.

 

[blueskies]

I just played a tourney where a guy made a debatable shove with KK with 6 ppl left. If he waited one more hand, the short stack (UTG on this final hand) would have been blinded out, and if SS lost the hand, then he would have cashed.

He got called by two people and his Ks were cracked. And the guy who had 250 chips left eeked out a fifth place.

Meanwhile, I folded AA from early position a few hands earlier. I still had 4-5 BBs left and I didn't want to risk a call by the deep stacks and losing when SS was so close to going out.

If the short stacker wasn't so short, I would have shoved, of course.

 

[Corey]

All HUDs should have M and BB figures, no need to work it out

My HUD is my head and ability to do division.

 

[Corey]

Do they have DoNs on FTP.Had a look, no luck.This post is useful for heads up play also. thanks to OP.

They don't have them on FTP, I don't think they ever will. I've heard regular SNG players hate double ups because it dries up the fish playing in the regular SNG's. I can totally see their point. For now, poker rooms are divided as to whether they have DU's or not, and I see that as a good thing.

 

[blueskies]

I am now 13-2 in my last 15 DoNs, usually finishing 3-5, after stinking it up in my first 30 games. Early on, I was trying to build a stack too early. I ended up either with a huge stack or busted early.

The two DoNs that I didn’t win in the stretch: I busted on KK vs. JJ all in preflop and I shoved with 10 10 and got taken out by KQ. I did get lucky twice with A10 vs. AQ (desperation shove) and AQ vs. AK (same thing). And a third time my J7 survived a three way showdown in a last stand. Other than that, I think I finally got how to play these things. Not taking unnecessary risks early and doing just enough stealing to survive. Then let the escalating blinds/big stackers take out the short stackers.

 

[blueskies]

Weaseled into the money yet again! Won 30 chips in the first hand by raising with AQ preflop, then got a walk on SB later on, and those were my only pots won. 5th place.

I continue to finish 4th and 5th consistently, a sign of doing just enough to survive, something I am happy about. I haven't had any monster starting hands for a while, which was the difference between winning and losing for me early on, but now I finally have a grasp, I feel.

My graph at sharkscope... hehe small potatoes but I'll definitely take it since I've not been doing good at cash gms lately. I am finally profitable at these DoNs!

 

[cjatud2012]

for your results from DON's, I suggest www.blogger.com. (45 games is a small sample size btw)

But since there isn't much strategy in here at this point there's not much purpose in the thread being open.