is this the perfect double or nothing strategy?

[crazywest]

Okay, my 1st hand was AA(UTG) & my 2nd hand was KK(BB);All in for a total of 60 chips.

the point the strategey makes is you would rather make 60 chips than lose 60 chips you dont want people to call i think the whole jist of the strategey in a nut shell is, your looking to make big money on the resteals by shoving but if you are called your hand is correct and you give your self a good chance of still wining, thoughts?

 

[serendipity]

Yes! You absolutely do not want to be called, even by 2 3 off suit. The 60 chips are exactly what you want here. The author explains it well when he says the object of these games is not to build a stack, but to NOT lose chips. This is why we are folding everything but pairs pre-flop when the blinds are low.

 

[pcgnome]

you are both absolutely right, I won this tourney! I wuz just trying to have fun relaying my own analysis of this strategy, bcuz poker is supposed to be fun. Isn't it?

 

[Pascal-lf]

The thing that I don't like about the micro Don's is that it's a coinflip where you pay 1.10 to win $2. You have to lose $ in the long run no matter what.

It's not a coinflip if you have a better DoN strategy & are a better player than all the other players.

If you have a 75% chance of cashing in a DoN and pay $1.10 to win $2 then it's profitable.

 

[kmixer]

It's not a coinflip if you have a better DoN strategy & are a better player than all the other players.

If you have a 75% chance of cashing in a DoN and pay $1.10 to win $2 then it's profitable.

I agree. We went over this quite some time ago but I will do it again since there are new people participating in this thread.

If you play 5 turbo DoN games you will pay 5.50 (5 x 1.10) If you win all five, when people are eliminated you will have $10 in the end. A profit of $4.50

If you play 5 regular SnG you will pay 6.00. If you come in third all 5 games you will have $9 for a profit of $3

If you come in 2nd of five games you end up with $13.50 for a profit of $7.50

If you win all of these you will have 22.50 for a profit of 16.50

but you have to knock out 8 people each time to do this.

If you think you can come in 1st or 2nd most of the time, then playing in regular SnGs is the way to go.

Not only do you pay more rake in a regular SnG but you have to eliminate more players in order to make more profit.

 

[pcgnome]

It's not a coinflip if you have a better DoN strategy & are a better player than all the other players.

If you have a 75% chance of cashing in a DoN and pay $1.10 to win $2 then it's profitable.

After reading this I convinced myself that I had to play a $5 DoN (with a $23 BR), & I won again, BUT...

At the 25/50 level I pushed all in w/ QJ o (sb) v. 99 (utg) , & I caught a J on the flop, so I won that coin toss & doubled up ...

ALSO, with six players left I was down to about 800 chips( utg, bb125-250 , a-50 or something) , so I decided to push w/ Q-9o v. K-Jo . I caught a Q on the flop, and it was all over. Another coin flip in my favor!

I believe that varience or luck had alot to do with my victory. The problem with playing such a tight strategy is that you may often find yourself forced to go all-in with marginal hands & a lower than average stack when you are near the bubble, because at that stage of the tourney it becomes a war of attrition with everybody playing tight, & waiting until somebody either screws up or blinds out.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Why are you pushing QJo with what should be 30BB? Even more so, why are you doing it vs an UTG raiser - you ran into the bottom of his range there, luckily.

Sounds like you are losing too many chips in the middle stages, check out some strategy guides

 

[pcgnome]

Yeah your right, It's crazy pushing all in w/such a marginal hand against a UTG riaser. It's amazing how just a few beers can ruin ur judgement.

 

[kmixer]

That is one thing the strategy is not so clear on. Should we be pushing the same hands with two limpers as we do with 3-4 limpers. Or how about a raise and a caller in front of us. Should this be a clear fold? I would think so but I don't think the strategy goes that deep to let us know. Unless I missed it.

 

[crazywest]

no ones spoke about position, it goes on about position being more important than hand strenth can some one explain this a bit more please thanks

 

[pcgnome]

Position is a very important concept in hold-em poker.

you'll notice that as when you you move from early to late position the shoving ranges in this strategy dramatically open up.

That is because...

1. In late position you have more information on what you are up against, since the other players have acted before you.

2. The earlier your position the more incomplete that your information is.

3. since you are acting first, you will not know whether a card on the flop,turn, or river is helping your opponent or not.

4. you may have to check when betting would have made your opponents fold.

 

[pcgnome]

#3-4 might only apply to this strategy if you are in the big blinds against a limper.

I think that the author believes that position is more important in the later stages of the tourney because - He wants to avoid a showdown, the equity value of each hand is greater when he is in a later position, and he is looking to steal and resteal the blinds.

I hope that this thread has helped you better understand the importance of position in Texas hold -em.

 

[serendipity]

Yes, exactly! I won my 5th and 6th DoN with this strategy last night (I am now 5 for 6). The last game saw 10 players in the tourney still when we were down to the high blind structure. I much preferred raising (all in of course) with trash from the button, than with say Ace King suited from early position. Using this strategy, you do NOT want to be called, so position is more important than the cards, simply because you are less likely to go to the showdown.

 

[kmixer]

Yes, exactly! I won my 5th and 6th DoN with this strategy last night (I am now 5 for 6). The last game saw 10 players in the tourney still when we were down to the high blind structure. I much preferred raising (all in of course) with trash from the button, than with say Ace King suited from early position. Using this strategy, you do NOT want to be called, so position is more important than the cards, simply because you are less likely to go to the showdown.

Are you playing at pokerstars? Are you playing the turbos or regular?

 

[serendipity]

party poker. My first few were turbos, but the last 3 have been regular ones.

 

[straytfrush]

I've played in about 50 of these at the $5 level on stars multitabling 10 at a time. I've had enough success so far I will continue to play more until I get a larger sample size to see how effective it is in the long term. In theory it appears to be pretty good. It is hard for me to break the habit of not raising if I have QQ and then never cbetting unless I hit a set. Late game this strategy is the one I would assume most people used before reading this anyway.

I have played 1/2 turbo and half regular and found the regular ones to be too slow to play the volume I would like. The regular tournaments also seem to be full of far more nits making stealing quite easy, but those much hoped for double ups with AA or KK in the beginning pretty rare. I found in the turbos people seem to be taking a more careless attitude in their calls to shoves calling them with just about any A from the blinds.

With the risk of sounding rude when I don't intend to, playing only a handful and then posting the results isn't very helpful to anyone. With such a small number not much can be determined about the strengths or weaknesses of the strategy.

 

[crazywest]

hey straytfrush, keep sampling this strategey and let us know how it goes for you it seems after 50 games your doing good, also does any one no a better way to shorten the strategey to make it easier to understand and take, in the whole things like over 7 pages , thanks

 

[fletchdad]

I have only just started plying DoNs. Played maybe about 20 so far. I am slightly + ROI, maybe 2%, so consider this OK as I am still not certain how to approach these. 20 games is not any volume to base anything on, but I am glad that I am not losing money - yet. I am finding it real hard to fold QQ and AK EP when the table is still full. It also seems to stay full till the blinds get high compared to regular SnGs. I read the whole article and the stuff linked by cjatud.

I am thinking push with AK and QQ if I am opening, but the article in OP is not taking this line (in low blind play and EP). Any thoughts on this?. He did say dont raise, push or fold, so I am thinking push with a premium starting hand any position, and blind level. I have NOT been doing this and think I will try for a small sample of games, and post results then.

Or am I committing DoN suicide with this line of thought?

 

[crancko]

I read the whole thing and decided to try it out. The strategy is solid, but keep in mind that the guy is playing $100 buy ins. I play low and micro stakes, so I decided to open it up a bit.

I still folded AK in the early blinds like he suggests, but decided to add QQ to the all-in hands instead of just KK and AA. I also called small raises with any pair hoping for a set, and folded when it did not come (as the strategy recommends).

Mid and late game I played his strategy exactly as he lays it out.

I played 4 double or nothings (three $6 and one $11) and won 3 of them.

4 sit and gos is not a big enough sample size, but I am going to try a few more over the upcoming weeks to see if my good start can be extended.

Thanks for the link!

And here is the reason for folding AK early - you'll meet idiots like me, who got into the game because i had an hour to kill before my MTT's start (couldnt get hand converter to function):

PokerStars Game #52636000127: Tournament #331187707, $5.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2010/11/13 19:10:37 CET [2010/11/13 13:10:37 ET]
Table '331187707 1' 10-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: JALCES (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: crancko (1520 in chips)
Seat 3: Sol Brave (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: brother wang (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: Tigraris (1480 in chips)
Seat 6: kaYloP (1530 in chips)
Seat 7: topdebil (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: ArmstrongCD (1530 in chips)
Seat 9: Jenjavitis (1500 in chips)
Seat 10: LOVEBUG34 (1500 in chips)
Tigraris: posts small blind 10
kaYloP: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to crancko [Js Qh]
topdebil: folds
ArmstrongCD: folds
Jenjavitis: folds
LOVEBUG34: folds
JALCES: folds
crancko: calls 20
Sol Brave: raises 80 to 100
brother wang: calls 100
Tigraris: folds
kaYloP: folds
crancko: calls 80
*** FLOP *** [9d Ts Ad]
crancko: checks
Sol Brave: bets 247
brother wang: calls 247
crancko: calls 247
*** TURN *** [9d Ts Ad] [4s]
crancko: checks
Sol Brave: bets 1123 and is all-in
brother wang: calls 1123 and is all-in
crancko: calls 1123
*** RIVER *** [9d Ts Ad 4s] [Kh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
crancko: shows [Js Qh] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
Sol Brave: shows [As Kc] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
brother wang: shows [Ks Ac] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
crancko collected 4440 from pot
Sol Brave finished the tournament in 9th place
brother wang finished the tournament in 9th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4440 | Rake 0
Board [9d Ts Ad 4s Kh]
Seat 1: JALCES folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: crancko showed [Js Qh] and won (4440) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 3: Sol Brave showed [As Kc] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 4: brother wang (button) showed [Ks Ac] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 5: Tigraris (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: kaYloP (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: topdebil folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ArmstrongCD folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Jenjavitis folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: LOVEBUG34 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[WarEagle1266]

Read this article and played exactly as strategy suggests. So far I am 3 for 3 on Pokerstars, 1 $5, and 2 $1 DoN's.

 

[WarEagle1266]

Update: this strategy seems to be working quite well. So far I'm 7 for 8. Unfortunately the one I lost was a $5 one where the strategy suggest raise all in with any pocket pair from small blind mid tourney. Folded to me with 33, raise all-in, and called by BB with AQ and he hits straight on flop. 1/2 for $5 and 6/6 on $1. Last 4 DoN's, I was multi-tabling 4 $1's.

 

[Gunslinger82]

I have read the strategy and have used it on my games today, so far to mixed results. I play the $5 DoN's on Will hill on the Ipoker network. Overall so far today I am up using it but the sample size is too small obviously. I do seem to be getting some of the most random calls, and generally the bad calls are beating me lol. But I suppose this is variance and over time will even itself out?

Has anyone got any idea's on fitting this strategy to the 6 handed version? (my premium game)

The issues I see are.

1. The blind go through you more often so by the time you get to the mid range blinds your stack can be a lot lower than he anticipates. And obviously chip stacks are vital.


2. The mid position hand range becomes redundant. All that fits really is either the early or late hands?

3. Less players = bigger playable hand range? Would you open up your range as you would in the late stages of a tourney? or 6 handed cash game? If not are you losing value?

For example early blinds early position AA-QQ AA-AJ as pushes? smaller pairs as limps?

Late position AA-99 AK-A8 set mine any pair and limp suited connectors?
DB Push any ace, pair, tow face cards? Maybe even any suited connector?

SB any two? BB if limped to you any 2?

I have been getting some bad calls. Even had KQ when i had AA under no pressure. Unfortunately he hit quad queens and bust all but 60 of my stack.

Does anyone grind these 6 handed DoNs? have any advice?

Go easy on me im new to taking the game seriously. All imput welcome tho.

Cheers and gl all except against me

 

[cjatud2012]

I hope everybody understands that if you play anything less than 500 DON's and you won't even know if you're truly a winning player or not. It takes well over 1000 games to even begin to determine your true ROI. So tbh 7 or 8 games mean nothing, if you're doing well/poorly it's just short-term variance.

/I'm feisty today.

 

[sweepnet]

I have been playing with this stategy on Doyles, also with mixed results. Was up after about 150 games, then hit a bad patch. Although not called turbo, the blind levels and times are close to turbo. I have the same problem with random calls. He recommends all the AI at the end stages, expecting to get a lot of folds, but you get called.

I have also played them on the 6max setup, and actually have done a little better there than on the 10 person.

I was playing very tight to the end, using his midgame recommendations all the way to the end.

 

[kmixer]

Good to see that some are havnig success with this strategy. Not pkaying too much Holdem at the moment so I am not even gonna bother trying anymore for the time being.

Wonder how any of this will work out for th Triple or nothing games that AP is gonna start having.