B
BlueNowhere
Legend
Silver Level
What I wrote was for this situation.
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
What you don't understand is the possibility of hitting a wheel, trips, or two pair is less than the "4%" or whatever you want to say. Also, you have to figure the possibility of the BB squeezing and you having to fold or hitting two pair and losing the hand (as seen here).
xUnrated
Rock Star
Platinum Level
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
I am with Blue here and any of you disagreeing have a huge leak in your game. You won't find a good successful tournament player who would support that pre-flop play.
De-valuing $1k in chips when you only have 8 bb's is not smart. It really represents $2k because if your shove is effective and you are called by a bigger stack which is often the case you will double that 1k. And as your stack keeps shrinking from the antes and the blinds that 1k becomes much more than 4% of your stack - in a hurry.
As far as how to play that short stack once you are stuck with it.... with 8-9ish bb's (and you must included the ante when calculating this)
You are looking for every opportunity to open shove that you can possibly find. Your range will depend on your position. You also have to consider the stack sizes left to act behind you.
If you are in the small blind and it folds to you then your shove range is at it's widest. Some would say any 2 cards with less than 7-8 bb's but I don't advocate shoving that wide. I am shoving any A, any pair, all suited connectors, all broadway cards unless unsuited with a very low card (and soon would be adding those in) and lots of middle 2 gappers etc.
I tighten up slightly on the button but not a lot and less as I lose more chips from the antes. Other late positions I am still shoving any pair, any 2 broadway, most suited connectors, most Aces.
I was once told there is no middle position - only early and late. While I don't always buy into that when I am shortstacked I do. From early position depending on my table I might not shove small pairs til I get a bit shorter, not shoving low Aces, only mid to high suited connectors - it really gets difficult to be general because it is so dependent on the table.
The smartest thing you can do is in choosing the right spot - not necessarily the right cards. Be patient. I could not say that enough and it is the key to my success in building short stacks back up. You have to know when to make your move and who to make it on. That is very difficult to put into words - just pay attention to your table and and the stacks of the other players.
If there is a huge stack behind you who is playing a lot of hands you don't want to shove into them with a very marginal hand. Have a hand you want them to call you with. (Doesn't have to be a monster lol).
If there is a raise in front of you - don't be afraid to fold if you suspect you are beat unless you have a very low stack and a really decent hand.
Never flat call with a short stack - shove or fold. When you do double up you need all of your chips to be in that pot.
It takes patience, finding the right spot, ability to fold when beat, and lack of fear at getting it all in over and over until it works or puts you out.
De-valuing $1k in chips when you only have 8 bb's is not smart. It really represents $2k because if your shove is effective and you are called by a bigger stack which is often the case you will double that 1k. And as your stack keeps shrinking from the antes and the blinds that 1k becomes much more than 4% of your stack - in a hurry.
As far as how to play that short stack once you are stuck with it.... with 8-9ish bb's (and you must included the ante when calculating this)
You are looking for every opportunity to open shove that you can possibly find. Your range will depend on your position. You also have to consider the stack sizes left to act behind you.
If you are in the small blind and it folds to you then your shove range is at it's widest. Some would say any 2 cards with less than 7-8 bb's but I don't advocate shoving that wide. I am shoving any A, any pair, all suited connectors, all broadway cards unless unsuited with a very low card (and soon would be adding those in) and lots of middle 2 gappers etc.
I tighten up slightly on the button but not a lot and less as I lose more chips from the antes. Other late positions I am still shoving any pair, any 2 broadway, most suited connectors, most Aces.
I was once told there is no middle position - only early and late. While I don't always buy into that when I am shortstacked I do. From early position depending on my table I might not shove small pairs til I get a bit shorter, not shoving low Aces, only mid to high suited connectors - it really gets difficult to be general because it is so dependent on the table.
The smartest thing you can do is in choosing the right spot - not necessarily the right cards. Be patient. I could not say that enough and it is the key to my success in building short stacks back up. You have to know when to make your move and who to make it on. That is very difficult to put into words - just pay attention to your table and and the stacks of the other players.
If there is a huge stack behind you who is playing a lot of hands you don't want to shove into them with a very marginal hand. Have a hand you want them to call you with. (Doesn't have to be a monster lol).
If there is a raise in front of you - don't be afraid to fold if you suspect you are beat unless you have a very low stack and a really decent hand.
Never flat call with a short stack - shove or fold. When you do double up you need all of your chips to be in that pot.
It takes patience, finding the right spot, ability to fold when beat, and lack of fear at getting it all in over and over until it works or puts you out.
Debi
Forum Admin
Administrator
With all due respect - you don't understand the stack size if you think he can risk $1k of it in that spot.
However - I am always happy to have short stacks at my tables who think that way.
TEG2300
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have been looking into more shove-fold range material recently. That being said I know the temptation to look at the SB limp as a "bargain" play but I truly agree that in the long haul you just end up in bad spots. I have been having the same problem with low pairs in early mid position with a min raise when I am short stacked. Tough for me to fold some times but even harder to shove what I almost know is going to be a coin flip after working for so long.
vegasjj
Legend
Silver Level
Well thank you - this was an excellent response that I did fully understand!
This whole discussion overall is fascinating! (and very informative - lol - who needs poker books - just read lots of threads here and listen to dakota
)
vegasjj
Legend
Silver Level
Loonbat
Rock Star
Silver Level
Just a general word of advice - most players micro spew chips throughout the course of a tournament by calling too lightly from the small blind, whether it be just completing or calling small raises too lightly. Realize that with a hand like ace rag you're almost never going to be comfortable with the flop and so (as many advocated) fold this hand pre. You don't have the stack size to see flops. I also am a fan of the ship preflop.
Once you have blundered into seeing yourself flop Aces up, get value from your hand and bet. Top and bottom is VERY vulnerable because you're not sure what cards kill you. Any other ace can get a bigger two pair with a turn and river to come and if the board pairs (not being your A or 3), you find yourself with a crappy ace.
I would say in my mind that fold/ship are about equal preflop.
Once you have blundered into seeing yourself flop Aces up, get value from your hand and bet. Top and bottom is VERY vulnerable because you're not sure what cards kill you. Any other ace can get a bigger two pair with a turn and river to come and if the board pairs (not being your A or 3), you find yourself with a crappy ace.
I would say in my mind that fold/ship are about equal preflop.
AllboutMeBaby
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I think you have figured out your mistake. I mean if you have A/rag and you check with 2 pair then it good chance some one is going to catch you. There was a had I was in and I had A/10 off and A/8/10 of diamonds flop.. I was like dam dam... we all know I did not have a dam diamond but as soon has it was turn I went all-in. They either were going to call and chase down the flush if they did not have one or fold because they thought I already had it. I was lucky they folded but that don't happen a lot. Of course you could have bet that A/3 and he may have made a hero call and still caught you. Who knows?