The mythical "Standard Raise"

[AllenKll]

I started playing poker online in 2006 or so, and when I studied the material, the 'standard raise' in a Tournament was 3-4x big blinds.

I took a few years off poker, but now as I'm getting back into it, I keep getting told that the standard raise is 2.2x

Why is this? I don't see a 2.2x raise giving any kind of advantage over a min raise - which has no teeth at all.

I'm re-raising - all day - people who min raise. I see them as weak, or playing with scared money. A poker pro I chatted with briefly told me that he sees people that open at 3-4x as recreational players and don't understand the game.

Well, I don't want to be a fish, so I need to understand. How do you get any kind of fold equity out of a 2.2-2.3x raise? Especially when there antes involved and a full table. with 2.2x you are giving many people pot odds to call with junk, especially the blinds.

How has this logic changed in the last, I guess, 15 years? What new information has come to light to say that 2.2x gives more power over a 3.5x raise?

Now, I'm talking about first in the pot action here, 3-bets and 4-bets are a different animal, and we can reserve that for another time.

Any and all comments welcome.

 

[Roller]

Doesn't make much sense but it is common now days. You have very little fold equity with such a small raise but I think much of it is dependent on the stakes that you play and the table that your on. Everything is just a base line or starting point in my opinion and if if somehow works keep doing it.

 

[thehangdude]

I decided to resurrect this thread because AllenKll asks the question better than I could.

My guess to the answer is because 3betting has become more popular. A smaller initial bet allows you to fold for cheaper, or call or 4bet without risking your stack. If anyone knows the actual answer, I would be interested to know.

 

[300HPGOD]

I dont have a real answer for this but I will take my best shot as someone who min raises a lot and also just over min raises a lot. The first thing you bring up is fold equity not being present with a 2.2 vs a 3 or 4x raise. I will say this is very true when the blinds are small but should not be anywhere near as great of a difference when blinds get larger. When blinds are large someone who is willing to come in cold for 2.2BB will probably also call 3BB with the exception being the BB. Think about though, if you have a raising strength hand (remove stealing from this for now) late with big blinds dont you want the BB to call when they have what most likely is a worse hand and also is out of position? I think this is where the whole smaller raise idea came from. The idea that you want to play your opponents post flop because you will have position a lot and also depending on your style have the better hand a lot.

3 Betting is a different animal and you probably have a point there but you are saying there are players who will 3 bet a 2.2 raise but wouldnt 3 bet a 3x raise? If this is the case then the 3 better is going to get trapped a lot especially if the raiser raises to 2.2x all the time when they raise no matter what they have.

I think another aspect is what type of game you are playing and both lead to raising smaller pre flop. If you play in a game where raises are not respected and opponents cold call wide then 3 or 4x isnt going to make them fold. If they are not going to fold anyway then why not raise smaller and then dictate the size of the pot post flop? The reverse also points to smaller raises in that if you are playing a game where raises are respected a lot then you dont need to raise large to get fold equity.

To sum it up I dont have a mathematical answer or a true answer about 3 bets but I will say is I believe a lot players raise to just signal that there hand is strong and to take a lead in the hand. They know that if they are going against a player who calls a lot, sizing doesnt matter for fold equity (it does for value which is a different argument altogether) and if they are against players who respect their raise then why raise 3BB when 2.2BB can get the job done. The last example would be the players in the middle who wouldnt call 3BB but will call 2.2BB and for those I would say then a majority of the time they dont have that strong of hands and I would want them to call my raise instead of fold to it.

 

[atcj13]

I would think it actually has more to do with postflop play. Smaller raise sizes lead to larger SPR's (stack to pot ratio) postflop. Larger SPR's lead to more decisions having to be made on multiple streets, in addition to gaining more information about the strength of you opponents hand. Most of the edges in poker come from making better decisions than your opponent.

 

[UkoChebuko]

First, I don't think 2.2 is standard, 2x is standard. The weak, inexperienced players see the stack as "chips", not as "blinds". That's why this new option, which allows players to see the stacks in blinds, actually is bad for the regs, not good . This raise is enough "scary" for them. Even with ante. Let's say 25/50 blinds, ante, 2x raise will be 100, looks pathetic. But 250, 500 blinds, even with ante, 2x raise will be 1000 and this is "scary". With this size you can steal let's say with A5o from LJ, you have a blocker, not so bad hand. If they fold 50%, this will be very profitable steal. You will see the flop in many cases and most likely vs the weak BB. I don't think you can do that with 3x raise. You can play wider range...This 2x raise maybe will be bad , if the strong hands in your range is less profitable with 2x. Like in the cash games (low limits). But this is not the case. They are still profitable with 2x, yes, smaller raise = less value, but wider range from the caller. Weaker range...

And I don't like to shove pre. If you use software, like HRC, you will see how "profitable" is this type of play. I am talking about early positions. If you play against good players, you will do that, ofc. Shove with 14-15bb, even with 20bb. Even with AA. Or you will never shove with 14-15bb, depends on your strategy. But vs weak players no sense at all. I played with one reg, he use 7bb stack for raise-fold. Looks pathetic, funny, I know. But this reg have very big sample with very good ROI, 400k profit, $5-$20 tournaments.

 

[UkoChebuko]

About the possible 3bet. Most of the people use 2x, or 2.2x, 2.3. This is not look "weak". If most of the people are using 3x, you can't play so profitable with 2x. You can't use the Hud so profitable, you can't use "field tendencies", "country tendencies" so profitable. Then this will be a problem. Like you said.

 

[madbeeet]

It depends on the limits, opponents and the stage of the tournament, as for me 2.2-2.5 is weak. It seems to me that 3bet will go much better. But that's just my opinion)