My MTT Strategies

[Snowmobiler]

Nice post Snow. Glad Egons post (which i thought you wud appreciate) inspired you to write about heads-up.

A few further questions.

Do you take notes on the players you meet in Mtts? (you may have mentioned this in previous posts and im sorry if you have- fish memory FTL)

What about the players you meet on a regular basis in cc tourneys? How do you adapt? Have you ever noticed them adapt to you?


What would the major adaptions you would make(if any) if you were to play one of the big sunday tourneys?

Would you consider yourself patient and how important is patience in the MTT arsenal?

1)My notes are in my head,I play from memory and what im currently seeing.

2)Yes, good regular players continue to adapt to me and I adapt to them.
It is a constant adjustment.

An example is Joe Showdown ,who it seems is at my table nearly every tourney.He described his shove range in an above post,I ask him to share his strategy because I already knew it.He pushes often short handed and near the button or Small blind in un-open pots.We are to the point that this type of hand is typical between us as blinds rise.

Joe has 3000 chips
Snow has 5000 chips (of course Im ahead)

Blinds of 300/600

Joe dealt 5c 2h
Snow dealt 9c 8s

Table folds to joe in the small blind and he pushes,I snap call

Most were amazed in the chat that this was the 2 hands we had.

From Joes point of view He needs a pot and is willing to gamble

From my point of view,I know he needs a pot and will push any 2 cards in the right situation.I felt this was one of them and combined with I want Joe to know he cant bully me,and that he will have to adjust his range or risk busting more than is acceptable.

My feeling is he will adjust his range based on my calling range and we will meet again in a similar situation.


This plays out in a variety of ways and I give examples of the extreme at times to illistrate a point.This is 1 of them.This hand is not made up,we actually played this hand

3)I would play my game in a big MTT.My style is tricky and unconventional at times, and I think I would fair ok.I am a small stakes player and am comfortable playing $20 levels and less

4)Patiance is key in the right situations and a real hidderance in others.I believe that every strategy should start with thinking about the Ms of the potential challangers to any pot.I start here and adjust to reads ect.


Thanks for great questions!



Snow

 

[the lab man]

It's funny you mention this Snow because my one of my notes on Joe ...Read Pushes big bets to win the pot... These were played at full Tlit

 

[Snowmobiler]

It's funny you mention this Snow because my one of my notes on Joe ...Read Pushes big bets to win the pot... These were played at full Tlit

This is good information to have as long as you know what those hands are( his range).Just the fact that he pushes in is less usefull.
A player pushes in His M was 12,pushed from small blind,and his hand was 9 spades,7 hearts
An example of the note: M=12,sb,(9s 7h)

You are against a player and look at these type notes.I only included 1,but if you had a list of them with different Ms and cards that they played,you will see enough patterns to make a good educated guess.


Im not a note taker and rely on memory,but this is the info I would want to have.



Snow

 

[Irexes]

Excellent post Snow

I think the most important thing you note is the need to respond to constantly changing information (in one of the first posts you made). Clearly you are taking account of a ton of information in your decision making.

Image as you say is indeed everything in tournaments, both yours and your opponents, managing this relationship, particularly with the people to your immediate right and left is huge.

One thing to note is that there's a big diference in successful strategy in the 1500 chip tournies and those with a deeper structure. In the CC games there's very rarely much play after the turn and most big decisions are made by the flop.

This results in a pretty polarised type of game and the key to winning is identifying the right people to shove against in the big pots either with or without a hand and those people who will call down or fold when you don't want them to.

People who are successful in CC games know when to pick their spots against largely known opponents. This skill is completely transferable to tournies where you have to make decisions with far less information or as Snow says with only 1 piece of info to go on. Developing the confidence to turn small clues into the ability to define ranges and likely behaviours is definitely the secret to all tournies.

 

[JoeShowdown]

1)My notes are in my head,I play from memory and what im currently seeing.

2)Yes, good regular players continue to adapt to me and I adapt to them.
It is a constant adjustment.

An example is Joe Showdown ,who it seems is at my table nearly every tourney.He described his shove range in an above post,I ask him to share his strategy because I already knew it.He pushes often short handed and near the button or Small blind in un-open pots.We are to the point that this type of hand is typical between us as blinds rise.

Joe has 3000 chips
Snow has 5000 chips (of course Im ahead)

Blinds of 300/600

Joe dealt 5c 2h
Snow dealt 9c 8s

Table folds to joe in the small blind and he pushes,I snap call

Most were amazed in the chat that this was the 2 hands we had.

From Joes point of view He needs a pot and is willing to gamble

From my point of view,I know he needs a pot and will push any 2 cards in the right situation.I felt this was one of them and combined with I want Joe to know he cant bully me,and that he will have to adjust his range or risk busting more than is acceptable.

My feeling is he will adjust his range based on my calling range and we will meet again in a similar situation.

Snow

I think your memory is accurate and I remember being shocked and baffled that you called me with 89offsuit. Surely you must have felt you were behind my range? Any high card or pair is ahead. I see you want me to think you won't be pushed around and I do believe it worked because I doubled up/sucked out with the 52off and the next orbit I was considerably tighter with what hand I'd shove in with. I may even have folded So, I did adjust my range.

My style is obviously risky but if 6 people get paid I'd rather be in the top 3 than the bottom 3. Sure, I'll go out 10th once in a while, but there is no guarantee I'll actually get dealt worthy cards to play.

 

[Youngerhov]

Wow. What a great thread. All of this info is stuff myself and my sidekick like to breakdown after a day at the poker room. I 100% agree with you about playing SnG's to boost your final table game. What site do you play at?

 

[Snowmobiler]

Excellent post Snow

I think the most important thing you note is the need to respond to constantly changing information (in one of the first posts you made). Clearly you are taking account of a ton of information in your decision making.

Image as you say is indeed everything in tournaments, both yours and your opponents, managing this relationship, particularly with the people to your immediate right and left is huge.

One thing to note is that there's a big diference in successful strategy in the 1500 chip tournies and those with a deeper structure. In the CC games there's very rarely much play after the turn and most big decisions are made by the flop.

This results in a pretty polarised type of game and the key to winning is identifying the right people to shove against in the big pots either with or without a hand and those people who will call down or fold when you don't want them to.

People who are successful in CC games know when to pick their spots against largely known opponents. This skill is completely transferable to tournies where you have to make decisions with far less information or as Snow says with only 1 piece of info to go on. Developing the confidence to turn small clues into the ability to define ranges and likely behaviours is definitely the secret to all tournies.

Thanks for your valued comments Rex!

After reading your post a couple of times and taking the night to think about it,I believe the next stage of growth for me in poker is to wade into some deeper stack tourneys, where I will need to make adjustments to my strategys to account for deeper stacks.If you would be willing to narrow my focus to where my biggest adjustments in my game will need to take place.You mentioned play after the turn and I can see that is going to be a key componant.I present this as a broad Question and any help is appreciated.

Thanks for your time!



Snow

 

[Snowmobiler]

I think your memory is accurate and I remember being shocked and baffled that you called me with 89offsuit. Surely you must have felt you were behind my range? Any high card or pair is ahead. I see you want me to think you won't be pushed around and I do believe it worked because I doubled up/sucked out with the 52off and the next orbit I was considerably tighter with what hand I'd shove in with. I may even have folded So, I did adjust my range.

My style is obviously risky but if 6 people get paid I'd rather be in the top 3 than the bottom 3. Sure, I'll go out 10th once in a while, but there is no guarantee I'll actually get dealt worthy cards to play.

1) I felt I was behind approx 80% of your range.The call was more for future situations than that particular one,where I want to force more folds.

2) I completely agree that the best money is at the top and busting 10th or whatever means nothing to me as Im playing to be the winner.


Thanks for putting things out there for discusion Joe and sharing your valuable info!




Snow

 

[Snowmobiler]

Wow. What a great thread. All of this info is stuff myself and my sidekick like to breakdown after a day at the poker room. I 100% agree with you about playing SnG's to boost your final table game. What site do you play at?

My signature line has all my sites,as I have wins at each I play.

Tx,


Snow

 

[Irexes]

Thanks for your valued comments Rex!

After reading your post a couple of times and taking the night to think about it,I believe the next stage of growth for me in poker is to wade into some deeper stack tourneys, where I will need to make adjustments to my strategys to account for deeper stacks.If you would be willing to narrow my focus to where my biggest adjustments in my game will need to take place.You mentioned play after the turn and I can see that is going to be a key componant.I present this as a broad Question and any help is appreciated.

Thanks for your time!

Snow

It's not an easy question to answer without resorting to unhelpful generalities but I'll try a few vague points and see if they are of any help.

First let's assume stacks of >30bb for 5 people 2 >50bb stacks and 5bb stack and a 15bb stack. Typically in tournies with a doublestack structure the average for large periods after the first hour hovers around 30bb so it's not unreasonable to see something like this (though usually there's a shortie or two.

In a shorter structure the average after the first hour is rarely >20bb and this shifts the dynamic hugely.

For a start the game of steal and resteal is a very different one. In shorter games it's rare to see someone fold a 3 bet preflop. In a deeper game the most profitable steal can be the 4 bet shove when you have some fold equity.

Similarly the action on the flop is not defined as fully by the preflop action as in short games. A lot of attention needs to be paid to pot size as it's easy to dribble away a 30-40bb stack with poorly sized bets on flop and turn and back yourself into a corner on the river.

In a shorter game the flop is usually the decision point for either committment to the hand or withdrawal.

Perhaps the easiest thing to say is that you can tell who the people who are uncomfortable with a deeper stack are. Mainly because they are clearly desperate to reduce the game to preflop and flop decisions by overbetting, shoving or checkfolding too often. That's not to say there isn't a place for the big shove early in the hand, but it should be because it's the right thing to do not because "OMG AQ and an A high flop errrrrcomplicateddecisionquickshovesoIdonthavetoworkitout".

Related to this is the obvious point that with deeper stacks comes the opportunity for greater patience. This doesn't mean that being supertight is the key, just that the pressure on decision making is different. As a result there will be circumstances where it's preferable to see a flop with AK than take a probable flip or that following a line that wins you a small pot with low risk is better than taking a riskier line to win a bigger pot (this is edging towards a small-ball discussion).

There's a lot of stuff related to playing against or being a short, medium or big stack but I've gone on enough


(one last thing, I don't play tournies other than double-stack or deep structures unless it's CC games, I feel the difference it makes is so significant)

 

[Snowmobiler]

Sometimes things just go your way

I have to say,I think my favorite tourney to play is the CC $11 Carbon Poker tourney played on Weds.I really respect the Quality of the people in this game and the structure really works for me.

I always do my best to give acurate details in situations,and realize after playing 3 tourneys today some of the details are fuzzy in replaying the hands in my head.So as I remember the hands:

Fairly early in the tourney,during the second blind level I am dealt pocket Dueces on the button.First position raises from 10 to 35 and there is a caller before me.I have 22 and and the SB and BB are gonna raise their really good hands, but unlikely to raise trash this early,so i go along for a flop,and so do SB & BB.The flop comes 2 5 J,and I flop trips but with 4 other people in the pot and 2 diamonds on the board,I could be in really bad shape if there is another set of trips and with the possible flush draw,I consider my options.Its checked to 1st position who bets 40 into 100 chip pot and the guy to my right calls.I decide to call.This lets me see what the SB and BB does (if they flopped 2 pr I might stack em) and If they raise I get to see what the other 2 players in the pot already decide to do. I am proceeding cautiously because I dont want to get stacked here.

The Q of diamonds comes off on the turn,and Im glad I didnt raise the flop (rare I don't raise flopped trips). 3 diamonds on the board and now 1st position bets 80 chips and guy to my right folds.I call, really hoping the board pairs and Im going to try to stack him (I believe he likely made the flush).

Oh what a beautiful river card,another duece (for Quads) and 1st position bets 340,I raise all-in (about 950 more) and he calls turning over trip 5s.

He had me crushed all the way to the river and I was extremely lucky to catch a 2 and stack him.

If the board paired other than the 2, he stacks me.

Sometimes You get really lucky in poker and this was one of those times.
I feel good about my play in this hand,limiting my downside when I was behind and maximizing my win with the nutz.I liked the other players play,I would Imagine he had me on the flush and when the board paired Im sure he thought he was gold.

This post took a while, so i will do another later with another hand that I found interesting.

BTW 2nd at carban for $55,and 7th or 8th in the UB freeroll for $3 or $4

Happy Birthday Joe and sorry for busting you in both tourneys .Once with my 4/5 clubs to Joes A/K off.I had alot bigger stack so gambled to bust him.


Snow

 

[kbasch]

I love limping the AA KK hands because people will try to push you off them in the mid levels of a tourney. The biggest payout i got i was at a table that was basicially the same up till we hit the money. Steal blinds around the bubble. Also tighten up once your in the momey because a lot of people will just start pushing their chips in so make them pay.

 

[FREEROLLSFTW]

awesome thread, hopefully this would put me deeper in tournies. I usually just make a few levels (blinds) after the bubble burst.

 

[Snowmobiler]

I thought i was good!
(details to the best of my memory a few days and a bunch of tourneys later)

I had a hand at a final table with 9 players left,and I had the 3rd biggest stack, when the following hand happened.

The table folded to me in the small blind where I have QQ and the 2nd biggest stack is in the big blind.I have 24,000 chips,he has 29,000 with blinds of 800 & 1600 and $50 antes (2850 total)

I am way ahead of my range and I had battled a few times with the bb and we both had been in pots building our stacks.
I want to bet an amount that is easy enough to call with mid pairs or 10/J suited for example and big enough to commit him to the pot.His M is 10 and mine is 8 (I round off to the nearest whole #,just knowing close is good enough) I believe that he could easily think Im trying to steal & I decide to raise to 4800 (3x bb).I really thought he would raise or fold,and then he calls.

I start trying to think of any other hands he calls with?Willing to call 10% of his stack.My 1st thought was pkt 4s-9s,my 2nd thought was kq or qj . He could also have A with little kicker.He can have several other hands,planning on bluffing the flop ect but I think less likely.

I really feel good about my pre-flop situation.Im way ahead of his range and planning on trying to stack him if the flop is favorable. The flop is 555,giving me a very nice full house QQ555 and most of his range is dead on the flop.He can have a 5 or AA or KK. I can't worry about any of these hands,if he slowplayed AA or KK,it wouldnt matter because I wouldnt of folded pre-flop and Im definately not folding post here.If he played A5 or 56 ect,then I got real unlucky.

Now I have to decide how to get all the chips in,so I make a bet of 3200 into a pot over 10,000 hoping he makes a big raise and he did.I reraise all-in and he calls and shows A5 for 4 of a kind.Im out,he is the big stack and I was in a bit of disbelief.I was 95% sure I was ahead and going to be the chip leader.My dreams were busted as happens often in MTTs ,and no time to fret I had another tourney starting in 30 minutes.

I could easily rant and get upset that he called my pre-flop raise with A5 and cause myself grief,but I wont because to play my best i need to stay focused and keep in a frame of mind to make good decisions.I see alot of people that get upset, but If you can let it go and get ready for the next Tourney,I think you will have a big advantage over the field in tourneys.Some bustouts sting more than others but none are worth messing up your play in the next one.

As for his play,I can see where he would have my range as wider than his,and a higher chance that Im stealing so his call pre-flop seems reasonble (not great, not bad).I could easily lay it down (A5) with the game situation but it worked nicely for him.



Snow

 

[Maid Marian]

I was only kidding with you snow. To get this back on point of strategy: I also limp in with big pairs on occasion in the early levels. I noticed you did this and won a very nice pot to get to 3k real quick. However, you took it to another level because someone already limped in front, then you with QQ also limp, I think someone with AK raised it and it goes back to you headsup out of position and you called it. Smooth move

This whole thread is so good for me to learn from! I'm accused of limping in too much, but when I'm with certain players, I tend to be more cautious! It also depends on the situation in front of me! Sometimes, I've put so many chips in & can't do anything but go all-in...sometimes I'm right & sometimes I'm very wrong! Sometimes I'm the trapped one & sometimes I'm the trapper! It depends on the luck of the cards dealt to every player at that table, our skills, my chip stack, placement in tournament, the feelings that human beings have at the time...not just myself.
I'm constantly trying to better myself & the CC Challenges help me the most! I am extremely competitive & love to win! And I will win someday, hopefully soon! I have won the FT Tournament to the DD twice out of 3 times I played! Although I did play the other day & now my average is 50%! But I will keep playing and reset my goals each & every time!
Snow, I have all of the things you've said about winning & they help me so much! Thanks!
And I do look at the advice of others too!

 

[DawgBones]

Great thread Snow! Marking this so I can read, re-read and re-read. Thanks to all who have shared their strategies and their thoughts behind playing certain hands in different situations especially when it's near the bubble or late with blinds increasing and fighting the M factor. Good stuff.

 

[Chronical23]

thanks for the great tips man

 

[LarkMarlow]

GL in your tourney Lark,and enjoy yourself!
Snow

Riverboat Free Roll report:

Though I didn't cash, I managed to make it to the final table using Snow's tips despite being literally card dead the entire night up until the last two tables. For real. Not one hand I folded earlier would have been a winner which I think is quite rare. The hands I did play kept me alive. When we were down to 8 some railbirds gathered around and scratched their heads, saying "She's still in?!" That felt great.

From a field of 60 the top 5 were paid and I got booted at 7th. I don't feel bad about that at all because the full house I went out on was beaten by miracle quads the third in command caught on the river.

After the tourney the guy who won (and happened to be the one who took me out) came up to me and actually asked about my strategy. Doesn't get any better than that. We had a really good conversation.

Thanks, Snow

 

[Snowmobiler]

Riverboat Free Roll report:

Though I didn't cash, I managed to make it to the final table using Snow's tips despite being literally card dead the entire night up until the last two tables. For real. Not one hand I folded earlier would have been a winner which I think is quite rare. The hands I did play kept me alive. When we were down to 8 some railbirds gathered around and scratched their heads, saying "She's still in?!" That felt great.

From a field of 60 the top 5 were paid and I got booted at 7th. I don't feel bad about that at all because the full house I went out on was beaten by miracle quads the third in command caught on the river.

After the tourney the guy who won (and happened to be the one who took me out) came up to me and actually asked about my strategy. Doesn't get any better than that. We had a really good conversation.

Thanks, Snow

Next time your hand will hold up and it will propel you to the Victory!

Congrats on a great tourney and your 1st final table,Well Done!



Snow

 

[Snowmobiler]

This whole thread is so good for me to learn from! I'm accused of limping in too much, but when I'm with certain players, I tend to be more cautious! It also depends on the situation in front of me! Sometimes, I've put so many chips in & can't do anything but go all-in...sometimes I'm right & sometimes I'm very wrong! Sometimes I'm the trapped one & sometimes I'm the trapper! It depends on the luck of the cards dealt to every player at that table, our skills, my chip stack, placement in tournament, the feelings that human beings have at the time...not just myself.
I'm constantly trying to better myself & the CC Challenges help me the most! I am extremely competitive & love to win! And I will win someday, hopefully soon! I have won the FT Tournament to the DD twice out of 3 times I played! Although I did play the other day & now my average is 50%! But I will keep playing and reset my goals each & every time!
Snow, I have all of the things you've said about winning & they help me so much! Thanks!
And I do look at the advice of others too!

For the time you have played ,I think your are picking things up quickly and a Win will come soon enough.Stay focused like you are and keep working at it and your 1st Win will come!


Snow

 

[PC69]

Hey Snow

Ive got a question that maybe you can just talk about briefly if uve got the time.. This is kind of a broad question because peoples stack sizes and there tendencies obviously are a big key in every hand...

I notice u almost never show in CC tourneys unless you go to showdown so I really dont know about your range of hands. I am curious to know in the middle of a tourney what are your ranges of hands UTG.. I.E small pp's, kj kq, and reletively profitable hands if they hit.

I have a problem with these hands more in the position of UTG than any other position..

Can u just touch base on your thoughts behind the UTG position in general

 

[Worak]

Great thread snow and some very helpful new ideas I have to ponder.

It shows a lot of experience and devotion to the game.

I have battled you often enough in the cc-challenges and followed your awesome performance there.

Sadly I can't take part in every challenge and learn more .....too much work / must get up too early.

I gather that you are playing a few years now - I'm seriously playing about a year now .... still a lot to learn but you and the other members are like poker-catalysers for me, thank you.

I'd like to know what you can see in my game if you want to share - if not it's ok, too.

Congrats again on a great thread - golden imo.

BTW: congrats to MOTM.

 

[Snowmobiler]

Hey Snow

Ive got a question that maybe you can just talk about briefly if uve got the time.. This is kind of a broad question because peoples stack sizes and there tendencies obviously are a big key in every hand...

I notice u almost never show in CC tourneys unless you go to showdown so I really dont know about your range of hands. I am curious to know in the middle of a tourney what are your ranges of hands UTG.. I.E small pp's, kj kq, and reletively profitable hands if they hit.

I have a problem with these hands more in the position of UTG than any other position..

Can u just touch base on your thoughts behind the UTG position in general

Good Question PC ,

1st position is so dangerous and easily one area that you can be leaking chips. You are 1st to act pre-flop and then one of the 1st to act the rest of the hand.This is a disadvantage that calls for usually tightening your range quite a bit.With everyone to act behind you,you generally have stacks that can damage you.

The hands you ask about,small PPs and KQ, Kj all are troubled hands in 1st position.I would want to have a very large M (30+) and try to limp and flop a Monster or an M of 1-7 and push my stack in and pray (yes I pray to the poker gods during hands ). Other than those situations Im just going to pitch em and look for a better spot.

I dont show a lot of hands,except here



Snow

 

[PC69]

Thanks Snow. I have lots of ?s but will try to span them out a bit and give others a chance to post..

I will use this along with some other tips that have been slowly progressing my MTT game.. IE bigger cashes and less suckouts.

Some things cant be avoided like aa or kk preflop sometimes but slowly there becoming less painful..

Thanks again M8

 

[Snowmobiler]

Great thread snow and some very helpful new ideas I have to ponder.

It shows a lot of experience and devotion to the game.

I have battled you often enough in the cc-challenges and followed your awesome performance there.

Sadly I can't take part in every challenge and learn more .....too much work / must get up too early.

I gather that you are playing a few years now - I'm seriously playing about a year now .... still a lot to learn but you and the other members are like poker-catalysers for me, thank you.

I'd like to know what you can see in my game if you want to share - if not it's ok, too.

Congrats again on a great thread - golden imo.

BTW: congrats to MOTM.

Ty very much graf,

I have played you pretty straight forward,using bets to find out where you are in a hand and usually given you credit that you had a hand when your actions show it.It seems like we havnt played against each other alot lately,but I will watch for you and maybe I can update later to anything I see.

I have loved card and board games all my life and grew up playing poker,



Snow