D
David Rima
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Some fascinating reading...
My take is simple, there is no guaranteed winner pre-flop. If you haven't shoved A,A and lost you haven't played enough poker to have an educated opinion.
Since no combination is a guaranteed winner you can't be wrong. To me the real answer hasn't been mentioned. The real reason to limp UTG with A,A is based on relative stack size. If your a big stack at the table and one or more players are short stacked than a limp will either warn them off or encourage them based on your image.
If you've been a bit of a bully or are viewed as a LAG than you might very well catch someone looking to shove thinking your looking to see a flop with suited connectors etc...
I do agree with the OP that it's more common than not for either HJ, cutoff or button to raise and more common than not to get a 3bet and potentially a 4 bet from the SB or BB...
So the real question is do you prefer to try and isolate 1 on 1 initially or are you OK with the possibility of going 3 ways (or more) based on stack size. I've been all in 4 ways more than once limping AA (mostly cash games but twice in live tournaments).
To me the bigger your stack the more you want to cut someone from the herd and the smaller your stack the more valuable it is to get multiple callers...
My take is simple, there is no guaranteed winner pre-flop. If you haven't shoved A,A and lost you haven't played enough poker to have an educated opinion.
Since no combination is a guaranteed winner you can't be wrong. To me the real answer hasn't been mentioned. The real reason to limp UTG with A,A is based on relative stack size. If your a big stack at the table and one or more players are short stacked than a limp will either warn them off or encourage them based on your image.
If you've been a bit of a bully or are viewed as a LAG than you might very well catch someone looking to shove thinking your looking to see a flop with suited connectors etc...
I do agree with the OP that it's more common than not for either HJ, cutoff or button to raise and more common than not to get a 3bet and potentially a 4 bet from the SB or BB...
So the real question is do you prefer to try and isolate 1 on 1 initially or are you OK with the possibility of going 3 ways (or more) based on stack size. I've been all in 4 ways more than once limping AA (mostly cash games but twice in live tournaments).
To me the bigger your stack the more you want to cut someone from the herd and the smaller your stack the more valuable it is to get multiple callers...
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Attachments
S
stokedog4
Rock Star
Silver Level
Vey good discussion. Popular opinion is really to almost never do this. But I've done it and been very successful before... I've also done it with 35 bbs and after a flop bet and an opponent raises, I sometimes have to lay it down.
If you can play well post flop and be willing to let it go, then I can see limping. However, you limp and the flop comes 478hh, and you check, opponent bets, another opponent calls. What are you doing with AdAs. Are you reraising, and if you do, you better lay it down when someone raises you!
Sometimes its good to play different than the way most players are playing... But a min raise will either pick up a pot (sb / bb and all the antes) Any pot you when late in tournaments is great... You wan action, but Never, I mean never go broke in a limped pot. Especially with 30-40 BBs. If you have 15BBs, then you can decide you are getting it in on any flop, that's okay i think.
Good luck peoples
If you can play well post flop and be willing to let it go, then I can see limping. However, you limp and the flop comes 478hh, and you check, opponent bets, another opponent calls. What are you doing with AdAs. Are you reraising, and if you do, you better lay it down when someone raises you!
Sometimes its good to play different than the way most players are playing... But a min raise will either pick up a pot (sb / bb and all the antes) Any pot you when late in tournaments is great... You wan action, but Never, I mean never go broke in a limped pot. Especially with 30-40 BBs. If you have 15BBs, then you can decide you are getting it in on any flop, that's okay i think.
Good luck peoples
M
MREM
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Limping with it early in? Don't really like it.
Limping with it when the players in blinds have shallow stacks and you feel like they will go all-in very often with worse hands to try and steal it pre-flop if noone raises? Probably good sometimes as long as your stack is big enough.
Limping with it when the players in blinds have shallow stacks and you feel like they will go all-in very often with worse hands to try and steal it pre-flop if noone raises? Probably good sometimes as long as your stack is big enough.
D
dontquit
Rock Star
Silver Level
I guess I need to rearrange this a bit. How do you play?? That is what you need to ask yourself. Do you open 3x UTG with 75s T9s, 66, etc...is your raising range balanced? Probably not..
Early in tournaments 3 x raises EP usually mean strong hands from most players. Very few players are balanced.
I'm always calling those players with my T9, 56, etc...my stack is so deep and it makes sense to try and get them to commit lots.
Now I'm sure I will get people to say I love playing against you and welcome your call....can you say you haven't been crushed by a set or 2 pair on a seemingly great board for ranges?
Be very wary brothers and sisters...I'm out to get your stack
Early in tournaments 3 x raises EP usually mean strong hands from most players. Very few players are balanced.
I'm always calling those players with my T9, 56, etc...my stack is so deep and it makes sense to try and get them to commit lots.
Now I'm sure I will get people to say I love playing against you and welcome your call....can you say you haven't been crushed by a set or 2 pair on a seemingly great board for ranges?
Be very wary brothers and sisters...I'm out to get your stack
D
dontquit
Rock Star
Silver Level
Deep
Te...I think this is the only time you should do it.
When you are short, a shove means you have any pair, suited connectors, suited gaps, and broadway cards. You are getting looked up...so shoving AA gets its desired result. Limping or small raises send off all kinds of signals!
When you are deep stacked, you raise 3x...2 callers...board comes T84 rainbow...you bet 1/2 pot...middle guy calls, and Button shoves for half your stack....fold? What if he just pots it? Fold? Doubtful...
Now my scenario... Limp with AA, MP calls...Button makes it 4x...you get the idea..
Next scenerio...Limp....MP calls, Button calls, SB completes...BB checks..same flop...you bet 1/2 pot...2 callers...turn is J...2 hearts on board. You check...checks to BB, he bets 1/2 pot...you check raise...he calls. You can check call here, check fold...take any line you want...but you do have a good idea that you are probably toast...move on
I doubt you lose half your stack or anywhere close to it.
Its been a while since I've had PokerTracker and been able to see results in all positions with AA. I'd like to see someone else's stats over a large sample and see what your results are both raising in EP and limping.
Te...I think this is the only time you should do it.
When you are short, a shove means you have any pair, suited connectors, suited gaps, and broadway cards. You are getting looked up...so shoving AA gets its desired result. Limping or small raises send off all kinds of signals!
When you are deep stacked, you raise 3x...2 callers...board comes T84 rainbow...you bet 1/2 pot...middle guy calls, and Button shoves for half your stack....fold? What if he just pots it? Fold? Doubtful...
Now my scenario... Limp with AA, MP calls...Button makes it 4x...you get the idea..
Next scenerio...Limp....MP calls, Button calls, SB completes...BB checks..same flop...you bet 1/2 pot...2 callers...turn is J...2 hearts on board. You check...checks to BB, he bets 1/2 pot...you check raise...he calls. You can check call here, check fold...take any line you want...but you do have a good idea that you are probably toast...move on
I doubt you lose half your stack or anywhere close to it.
Its been a while since I've had PokerTracker and been able to see results in all positions with AA. I'd like to see someone else's stats over a large sample and see what your results are both raising in EP and limping.
Sil3ntness
Legend
Silver Level
I still prefer raising AA. The object is to get as much money in the pot ASAP PREFLOP with AA. More money you can get in the pot preflop, the easier it is to get your whole stack in the middle with AA post flop. (Stack to Pot Ratio : SPR)
Limping AA just sounds ultra nitty if you're playing scared money post flop.
Limping AA just sounds ultra nitty if you're playing scared money post flop.
D
dontquit
Rock Star
Silver Level
Ultranit
I hear what you are saying but it doesn't usually work that way. If you are open shoving you are guaranteed to be facing maybe only one player to the flop. That play seems ultra donkish btw. Mind you we are talking in early position with AA...I'm not talking in position against other players.
Let me use your SPR explanation to further clarify:
You are UTG and you limp..blinds are 75/150...you have the starting 20k stack ...5 people see a flop...Pot is 750....
You raise UTG 3 x (450) and get 3 callers ...Pot is 1800....
What is your continuation bet post flop on both?
I would argue that both have potentially disastrous consequences early in the tournament. I would argue that both scenarios each player probably has the same hand. How do you navigate? When you limp, no one knows your hand. I was taught to ask with your chips. I think it is more likely that someone in late position will look to pick up dead money with a nice raise when you limp early in a tournament ....more often than when you 3x early and have callers. If JJ+ and AK/AQ are on the button or behind you...you will get raised whether you limp or you raise.
If I raise in LP with AK, AQ, JJ, QQ...and the guy that limped reraises me...I am not immediately putting him on AA.....if he 3x's...and he reraises me, KK/AA has to be in your wheelhouse!
PS. I am in no way trying to convince everyone that you should adopt this. I'm just trying to broaden your thinking.
Secondly, I have never been called a nit...so I doubt this is an ultra nit play
Sil3ntness, I would love to know how much you have earned in tournament play. You can PM me if you'd like
I hear what you are saying but it doesn't usually work that way. If you are open shoving you are guaranteed to be facing maybe only one player to the flop. That play seems ultra donkish btw. Mind you we are talking in early position with AA...I'm not talking in position against other players.
Let me use your SPR explanation to further clarify:
You are UTG and you limp..blinds are 75/150...you have the starting 20k stack ...5 people see a flop...Pot is 750....
You raise UTG 3 x (450) and get 3 callers ...Pot is 1800....
What is your continuation bet post flop on both?
I would argue that both have potentially disastrous consequences early in the tournament. I would argue that both scenarios each player probably has the same hand. How do you navigate? When you limp, no one knows your hand. I was taught to ask with your chips. I think it is more likely that someone in late position will look to pick up dead money with a nice raise when you limp early in a tournament ....more often than when you 3x early and have callers. If JJ+ and AK/AQ are on the button or behind you...you will get raised whether you limp or you raise.
If I raise in LP with AK, AQ, JJ, QQ...and the guy that limped reraises me...I am not immediately putting him on AA.....if he 3x's...and he reraises me, KK/AA has to be in your wheelhouse!
PS. I am in no way trying to convince everyone that you should adopt this. I'm just trying to broaden your thinking.
Secondly, I have never been called a nit...so I doubt this is an ultra nit play
Sil3ntness, I would love to know how much you have earned in tournament play. You can PM me if you'd like
Sil3ntness
Legend
Silver Level
I wasn't calling you directly a nit. No need to limp monsters when you get set over set.
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Merge, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
SB: $89.59 (89.6 bb)
BB: $91.42 (91.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $100 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $55.01 (55 bb)
MP1: $100 (100 bb)
MP2: $119.98 (120 bb)
MP3: $174.76 (174.8 bb)
CO: $32.63 (32.6 bb)
BTN: $79.77 (79.8 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K
K
Hero raises to $3, 6 folds, SB calls $2.50, BB folds
Flop: ($7) 3
8
2
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50
Turn: ($14) K
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $10.50, SB calls $10.50
River: ($35) 7
(2 players)
SB bets $35, Hero raises to $83 and is all-in, SB calls $37.59 and is all-in
Results: $180.18 pot ($4 rake)
Final Board: 3
8
2
K
7
SB showed 8
8
and lost (-$89.59 net)
Hero showed K
K
and won $176.18 ($86.59 net)
---
Merge, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.
SB: $89.59 (89.6 bb)
BB: $91.42 (91.4 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $100 (100 bb)
UTG+2: $55.01 (55 bb)
MP1: $100 (100 bb)
MP2: $119.98 (120 bb)
MP3: $174.76 (174.8 bb)
CO: $32.63 (32.6 bb)
BTN: $79.77 (79.8 bb)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K
Hero raises to $3, 6 folds, SB calls $2.50, BB folds
Flop: ($7) 3
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50
Turn: ($14) K
SB checks, Hero bets $10.50, SB calls $10.50
River: ($35) 7
SB bets $35, Hero raises to $83 and is all-in, SB calls $37.59 and is all-in
Results: $180.18 pot ($4 rake)
Final Board: 3
SB showed 8
Hero showed K
P
PKRNRS
Visionary
Silver Level
I could see your point. Later stages are a shove fest at times. Especially lower buy-in daily. You know someone is going to shove, why not wait and see who it will be. And it depends on stack sizes. If there are a lot of short stacks you know they're going to pick that random ace and play it. I wouldn't want to see more than three players in the pot though if I had a big monster. At a certain stage I wouldn't say it is a bad play at all.
DontAskWh
Visionary
Silver Level
Well , if you will limp AA from UTG , and then 4-5 opponets will call you , and hitting the best combination with J9 or 47. I think this won't be a profitable game , but they can think that you didn't have anything , and they will decide to make big raise to steal the blinds I think this will be a nice profitable game , but its depends how will play your opponets , but I think most of them will make a raise This is a nice idea to play a monster hand with limp from UTG, anyway sometimes you will think why i didnt make raise =) when they will join on the bank with limp as you , but sometimes you will think this is nice he making raise , and you will have two options to re-raise or to call.
Thanks.
I think this will be a nice profitable game , but its depends how will play your opponets , but I think most of them will make a raise This is a nice idea to play a monster hand with limp from UTG, anyway sometimes you will think why i didnt make raise =) when they will join on the bank with limp as you , but sometimes you will think this is nice he making raise , and you will have two options to re-raise or to call.Thanks.
Z
ZingyT
Rock Star
Silver Level
When "late" in a tourney (in the money/final table) I make a point to vary my game widely, specifically to throw people off and trap.
I find early position limping is very effective late, since blinds are high and stealing is alot more important.
Be VERY careful if the SB/BB get into the hand unraised as there is nothing more tragic then a raggy flop that hit 2 pair+ for the blinds. I dont worry about other positional callers, but a free BB flop can be any 2 cards.
I find most often its that dynamic that leads to an unhappy endings.
I find early position limping is very effective late, since blinds are high and stealing is alot more important.
Be VERY careful if the SB/BB get into the hand unraised as there is nothing more tragic then a raggy flop that hit 2 pair+ for the blinds. I dont worry about other positional callers, but a free BB flop can be any 2 cards.
I find most often its that dynamic that leads to an unhappy endings.
S
Steve_StudAA
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yeah I can't even get my AA to hold H2H, fck that limping sh-it. But I see your thinking. I have won some pretty big pots with AA when my PFR was not big enough to get it H2H and I had a few callers. I tend to fire on the flop then. Those rockets tend to catch people by surprise. But I have also been many times caught by the flopped set or the 8 5 flush draw that may have folded PF.
The strategy IMHO wins few big pots, does win lots of small pots, but loses monster pots.
What cards do you think are calling the big bet you speak of? 2 pair, flopped sets, 4 to a draw, made hands IMHO. Now your AA is nothing but a 2 outer and the villian might already be ahead, or sitting with 19 outs with 2 cards to come.
AA IMHO must be played heads up. I'm not looking to take down the pot PF with AA. I'm looking to make a bet big enough to remove the junk but get a caller with a speculative hand or a big pair. Should someone 3 bet, well they get my entire stack back PF, then they hit their 2 outer and I'm searching for another tournament usually. But that is how I play the rockets. It's a loser play, but that's what I do unless I'm 12 BB, then it's just shoved.
Just 2 cents from a losing player, so take it with a grain of salt of course.
The strategy IMHO wins few big pots, does win lots of small pots, but loses monster pots.
What cards do you think are calling the big bet you speak of? 2 pair, flopped sets, 4 to a draw, made hands IMHO. Now your AA is nothing but a 2 outer and the villian might already be ahead, or sitting with 19 outs with 2 cards to come.
AA IMHO must be played heads up. I'm not looking to take down the pot PF with AA. I'm looking to make a bet big enough to remove the junk but get a caller with a speculative hand or a big pair. Should someone 3 bet, well they get my entire stack back PF, then they hit their 2 outer and I'm searching for another tournament usually. But that is how I play the rockets. It's a loser play, but that's what I do unless I'm 12 BB, then it's just shoved.
Just 2 cents from a losing player, so take it with a grain of salt of course.
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