Leading out vs C/R

dbitel

dbitel

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I read the 2 lead out with a set vs C/R with a set posts here, so thought I would let you in on my thoughts. I'm gonna be pretty unorigional and just copy/paste a post I wrote a yr or so back in another forum, but i think it covers most of the important points:


I want to point out a general fact that is a lot of the time overlooked on this forum. Every1 (including me and a lot of the well respected posters) on this board keep harping on about playing combo draws and monsters the same way. We justify saying that by spouting the words “shania”, “metagame” or “game theory” usually. However, it’s quite obvious, that with the 2 hands we are looking for 2 different things. When we have a monster, we want to get paid off, and when we have a combo draw, we want folding equity. Against a very good opponent (one that is better than us or as good as us), then playing your draws/big hands the same way is the line that achieves optimal +EV. However, against a donk, this is not true. For instance, vs. a calling station that will always stack off with TP, what’s the point getting all in on the flop with 12-15 outs when you know he will call, when instead you could draw with good odds and stack him when you hit, b/c he’s that bad. Similarly, vs. a nit, there’s no point bet/3betting all in with a set on a dry board, b/c you’re letting him fold his overpair. OK, now that I’ve got that out of the way, let me tell you about some of the considerations when deciding whether to b/3b or C/R:

Stack Sizes (in relation to the pot):

This is really important. There’s nothing worse than C/R a board with a combo draw, only to get called, have a lot of money behind on the turn, and the turn bricks. You’re aim it normally to get AI on the flop with both a combo draw and a monster, so if unsure, it’s best to take the line that that gets you all in with the most ease. Eg. You have $20 behind and the pot is $10, then a C/R is the best option, as it gives your opponent a chance to cbet/bluff and your C/R will easily be all in. If however you have $95 behind and the pot is $17, then a bet/3bet is better. Lead for $17 and then after even a minraise, you’re 3bet all in, is a PSB.

The other reason that stack sizes are important, is to figure out the FE you have on a draw. Obviously, the shorter stacked the opponent is, the less FE you’re going to have

Dead Money:

This again is VERY important and a point overlooked regularly. You want to take the line that traps the most dead money in the pot. E.g. Let’s say that UTG raises, and gets 3 callers, you call in the SB with a suited connector, BB fold. You flop an OESFD. If you lead out, and the PFR raises, then the 3 callers inbetween will all fold. If, however, you check, the PFR bets, then hopefully a few of the players inbetween will call with a draw/weak TP or whatever, and when you then C/R, you trap all of their money in the pot.

The opposite of this is also true. I.e. you call the button’s raise in the SB and 3 others also call it, then it’s best to lead out, as you trap the most dead money in the pot that way.

Image/Reads:

Imagine the PFR is a LAG who cbets a lot, but gives up UI on the turn. Then obviously, a bet/3bet line is inferior to the C/R, as you lose his potential cbet. If however, the PFR is very agro and can raise semi-weak leads with air/weak made hands, then the bet/3bet line is superior as we trap more of opponent’s money in the pot.

As well as our read on our opponent being important, our own image is important. If for instance, we have been seen to C/R big with a monster hand before, then it might be best to C/R big next time with a combo draw, as we’ll have a lot of FE. Also, the tighter our image, the weaker our draw can be that we’re either C/R or bet/3betting as we’ll have more FE. If however, we have a very loose image, then its best to stick to very strong draws, as we will get looked up more often.

Lastly, as I’ve already stated above, our read on villain is important as to how many draws we can play fast. If villain is a nit, then we can play a lot of draws fast, if he is a calling station, then very few.

The Turn

One of the biggest problems with a bet/3bet line, is if our opponent doesn’t oblige, and he just flat calls our lead. Here, reads are VERY important. If you think he is the type to just call on the flop with TP, then there’s little point making a big bet on the turn getting him to fold it, as it’s very likely he won’t. It is instead better to bet an amount that prices you in, or maybe just check/call. If however, you think that you’re opponent is floating you on the flop, then it might be best (albeit very high variance) to C/R the turn.

C/R with other hands

I see so many posts on this board that say “Well I flopped TP, but with a weak kicker, so I checked. He then bet, which I think could be a cbet, so C/R him to find out where I stand”. IMO this is a terrible (and expensive) reason to C/R. A much better line is to just lead the flop, or if you want to snap off the cbet, then call, and lead a blank turn. While this line is quite transparent at higher levels, it is VERY VERY effective at SSNL. Lastly, I’d like to introduce you to the dbitel rule of check-raising:

“By default, never C/R, only C/R if you have a very good reason to do so”
 
thwizzofoz

thwizzofoz

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There seems to be a wonderful amount of information in this. I get most of it. But, I am new and ignorant to some of the abbreviations.

TP... I know it doesn't mean tight pants. But, if I put in Top Pair, it kind of makes sense.

C/R... I believe it to mean Cut and Run. If I am reading it wrong then I have missed the major points of the article.

Martin's post helped https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/poker-chat-abbreviations-75388/
But, didn't cover the poker terms/abbrevations used here.
 
thwizzofoz

thwizzofoz

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Imagine the PFR is a LAG

Pretty Friendly Redhead?
Large American Girl?

After analyzing OESFD and finally figuring out it must mean Open Ended Straight Flush Draw, my head hurt.
LOL

Not complaining. Just finally getting my footing here.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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PFR = Preflop Raiser
LAG = Loose/Aggressive player.
 
thwizzofoz

thwizzofoz

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OK... reread the article with new info. Got more out of it.

Thank you,
Wizz
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Very nice stuff dbitel. tbh the only stuff I'd ever read about playing monster hands that went into any depth was doyley's part in SS2 which really wasn't too helpful to anyone not playing a super LAG style.

rep+ and please keep these posts coming even if they're only copy+pastes from 2+2.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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AI = all in
UI = ?

under the influence?


I think we should have a poker abbrev. guide written here at CC. Would definitely help for those who don't understand these terms.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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ai=all in
ui= unimproved.

edit:

great post as usual dbitel. i look forward to your discussions. i think a lot of ssnl is very transparent, so these are especially useful in manipulating abc players. not necessarily people that play abc poker, but against those that do not vary their play. it's mostly common sense if you sit and think about it, but, unfortunately in the heat of battle we dont have time to sit and recall everything a lot of the time.

hmm, i flopped a great draw against someone that loves to cbet. checkraise here sounds good on this board. etc.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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also, thanks to your many posts bringing the dead money back into my peripheral vision at the tables, i am much more aggressive and tend to harsly punish the weak-tight pf limpers from late position a lot more now. i think not doing so was a huge leak in my game.
 
thwizzofoz

thwizzofoz

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Nice feedback! Thanks. Helps leaps and bounds.
 
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