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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
You’re right, I counted dead cards. Still that gives us 10/47, or roughly 1:4 that a club will hit the turn.
If you know you’re playing a rock that has a piece of the board the best hand he can possibly have is a kicker of the same board suit. If you think he’ll keep barreling on the turn if it is a non-suit card why not let a card peel off with 4:1? This does of course; discount other hands in his range like sets and two-pair combos – but if you know him well enough to know he has an ace here, then 80% of the time a club does not hit the turn.
I know this is a stretch – but there’s got to be a realistic situation where a flat call on the flop is ok – doesn’t there? I think this situation was close, though if I’d of just raised I would have saved myself a lot of grief.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
your definition of a rock is pretty odd man, he opened a ton of hands and then opened A9o UTG, this is the opposite of a rock.
You also said he is stationy postflop which means he doesnt fold Ax and he doesnt fold any decent pair with a club. he can virtually never have sets and he isnt folding them on flop but will fold them on some turns.
I see no reason given your description to think villain will ever b/f the hands we want him to have
You also said he is stationy postflop which means he doesnt fold Ax and he doesnt fold any decent pair with a club. he can virtually never have sets and he isnt folding them on flop but will fold them on some turns.
I see no reason given your description to think villain will ever b/f the hands we want him to have
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RamdeeBen
Legend
Silver Level
As already stated numerous times, no and it's no where near close, how can it ever be?
Like I said before, what's your definition of a realistic situation where flatting this flop is going to be good? In your words even at a "stretch" I can't think of any good situations to flat, ever. If you can give an example of where you think flatting is going to be good then I'd be happy to see, maybe it can open my eyes up a bit with some good reasoning.
That said, there's been a lot of good input in this thread (hopefully you take some of it on board) but it seems you're still adamant on trying to justify the play in some way even after admitting it wasn't good.
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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
Post-flop rock! Yeah pre-flop he was not a rock, yet mostly that was driven from his ignorance of position – so in many ways he was a rock pre-flop as well; his rock range was just much wider than I would typically consider an actual rocks’ range to be. And rocks are typically very mindful of their position, at least in my experience, but maybe it just appears that ways since they are so selective.
You’re right; he can virtually never have a set on the flop, for two reasons:
1. Pre-flop he doesn’t raise pocket pairs that set up on the flop – short of aces but we can already discount that hand since we know he opened light from physical tells.
2. If by some stretch he did set up, he certainly doesn’t lead out and bet – we’re going to get check/called or c/r here virtually 100% of the time.
He also won’t fold Ax hands even without a club kicker to a flop raise – so what does raising the flop gain us? It just makes the pot bigger and gives us no useful information; he could still have aces up, or ace club/no-club kicker hands.
The turn is where we can get him to fold Ax hands. The downside is that if he does have a club kicker we just shot ourselves.
Let me be clear – I’m not trying to justify anything at this point. What’s done is done and I’m over it. I’m just entertaining a few options and going down those respective roads – just to see where it takes us. This has no bearing on real life – ramdeebam seems a little bent out of shape here. I’m just trying to use the multiple facets in this hand to my advantage and learn as from them so that I can at least justify similar future decisions.
redcross
Rock Star
Silver Level
My view on it is when you go in after a raise with 4 high you are looking for trouble. And from you description sounds like you found it. That is very unfortunate but good job on your reads,
One thing I'm unsure of is your reasoning for calling the raise in the first place. You saw an opportunity if your hand hit?? Isn't that every hand? If I have a 2 7 should I be thinking, wow if I hit 2 pair I could make a killing. Sounds like a good way to blind yourself out of a tourney, or run into trouble.
One thing I'm unsure of is your reasoning for calling the raise in the first place. You saw an opportunity if your hand hit?? Isn't that every hand? If I have a 2 7 should I be thinking, wow if I hit 2 pair I could make a killing. Sounds like a good way to blind yourself out of a tourney, or run into trouble.
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
At first you said you wanted to play a hand with this guy because he is a rock post flop. You wanted to outplay him.
Now you say he doesn't fold, and what does raising accomplish.
You are just contradicting yourself. You continue to dream up new ways that your play is acceptable in this situation.
You said before you are going to try and steal the pot post flop.
Then you flop a straight and flat call OTF with a monotone board.
Fold preflop.
As played, raise OTF.
If he calls raise OTF, fold turn. Too many hands with clubs in his range.
You played the hand incorrectly. You are beating a dead horse. You are now contradicting yourself. You played the hand badly.
And it all started with a bad decision preflop, then a bad decision OTF. Then another bad move OTT. You were lucky he called OTT behind. He could have easily had a club. You did not know for sure. Clubs were in his range.
And it seems you have a chip on your shoulder. Results oriented. You are trying to mold this hand into something it is not (a good play).
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
It's not binary with only these two possibilities. I don't think you played this hand optimally at every point, but neither does it look like you did anything unthinkingly, with no reasons.
It does seem that you put a great deal of weight on your reads. While going with reads is fine, I do think that how far we go with them should factor in how solid they are. Obviously, you felt at the time that yours was strong enough to play the hand the way you did. I have no real basis to support or to question this.
