Mr Sandbag
Legend
Silver Level
Fold preflop. 4-3 is behind almost any range and dominated by all raising ranges, even when villain is raising light.
Raise the flop. You flopped a big hand with a very, very dangerous board. You simply cannot afford to slow play it. It's a raised pot and he c-bet into it. It's big enough. Take it down.
On the turn, check back. He takes the same line and is just as uncomfortable as if he had raised light (like you said) with a hand like 10c9c and flopped the flush. He could also be acting.
If you check back, he obviously bets the river and you fold.
It's not really a cooler. A cooler is when you are way ahead and played the hand perfectly but your opponent gets a miracle. You played a trash hand, flopped a big hand, and slow played it on a deadly board.
No big deal. Learn and move on to the next tourney!
Raise the flop. You flopped a big hand with a very, very dangerous board. You simply cannot afford to slow play it. It's a raised pot and he c-bet into it. It's big enough. Take it down.
On the turn, check back. He takes the same line and is just as uncomfortable as if he had raised light (like you said) with a hand like 10c9c and flopped the flush. He could also be acting.
If you check back, he obviously bets the river and you fold.
It's not really a cooler. A cooler is when you are way ahead and played the hand perfectly but your opponent gets a miracle. You played a trash hand, flopped a big hand, and slow played it on a deadly board.
No big deal. Learn and move on to the next tourney!
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
I see the OPs point about the bluff thing.
Hoping your opponent will think you are bluffing and turning your hand into a bluff are 2 different things. Opposite things actually.
In the former you want your opponent to call
In the latter you want your opponent to fold.
Completely different lines of thought and strategy.
Maybe neither was ideal here, but they ARE different.
Hoping your opponent will think you are bluffing and turning your hand into a bluff are 2 different things. Opposite things actually.
In the former you want your opponent to call
In the latter you want your opponent to fold.
Completely different lines of thought and strategy.
Maybe neither was ideal here, but they ARE different.
EvertonGirl
Professional Fish
Loyaler
I am a nit too, and I would definitely have folded 34 pre-flop I hate low straights/flushes
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redwards92
never going to move up
Silver Level
Yeah but you shouldn't be betting here for value in this particular spot because you are pretty much always only getting called by better.
Unless, of course, you have an ability to put someone on their exact hand while using your psychic abilities to know he will call off with two pair and worse on this board then by all means get that stack in the middle!
and just read the bottom of your post,I get what are saying yeah.
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turtelliusshellius
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I completely agree with your play here because of your particular reads. If you can get a person to call with 4 outs solely by playing a combination of board reads and personal reads then you played it perfectly. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then, so don't let it affect you. A lot of people would argue "loss control" here, but personally I don't agree with loss control play because it decreases your value in the long run; since he folds the river in any situation that he doesn't hit (which means he folds the worst hand and calls the best hand) decreasing your long term value when weighed against the play you executed. If he doesn't hit his 4 outer you are a stack to be reckoned with, and with your hand reading ability, that means you are an absolute soldier at the table. Very well played and I'm sorry you got unlucky, but variance is a reality of poker. All we can do as players is make the most long term profitable play at every moment. If you do that, then you can never lose long term.
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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
Look -I didn’t mean to come off as Hellmuth here- but when I get a response like this:
“Fold – you have 4 high”
What am I supposed to do with that? Gee thanks. That makes just as much sense as hearing a novice player say AK is just ace high.
Pre-Flop
Now – I understand the fold pre-flop suggestions and even agree with them; in hindsight I should have folded pre-flop or 3-bet; flating was the worst option that I had, and that’s the one I chose. The 3-bet is not a very good option either because I’m nearly certain he calls anyway.
That said – this is tournament poker and you have to get in there and play; we all know that. If I know a 3-bet isn’t going to earn a fold and will instantly make the pot larger than I want it to be with a speculative hand while simultaneously trying to make my opponent pay for the information is blatantly giving away - a flat call starts to show some merit; I can’t take advantage of the information he is giving away by folding – that was my thought process at the table as well. If I hit the flop good things happen and if he misses the flop like he will 70% of the time I can steal it.
Now, in hindsight – I wish I had just folded both from a results-oriented standpoint and a non-results orientated standpoint – but at the time, my thinking made send to me.
Flop
My opponent is not betting on the come here; I know that. He could have a club kicker but that’s it. I wanted to raise the flop, but talked myself into taking a chance to increase value with nearly any additional course of action I chose. If a club doesn’t fall I can expect him to barrel the turn and I can easily extract lots of value. The whole idea of calling pre-flop with this hand was to flop big and crack – raising the flop and having him fold is a disaster.
Turn
When the club falls I have to assume he has a club kicker; that is until he all but tells me that he doesn’t. Yet I thought that he improved his hand. I didn’t think he had something like 99 for a couple of reasons; his pre-flop action was indicative that he opened light (which is not 99 in his mind) and he wouldn’t have led the flop without at least a pair – probably an ace. So, that really limits the combos he can have here – and it’s not a Hellmuth soul read.
After his check I could check back which could make him turn his hand into a bluff on the river, but there are a lot of cards that I don’t want to see (i.e. another club, any paint, any ace, or a board pair in case he did have a set). I thought he had aces up and could talk him into stacking by shoving – and that’s exactly what happened.
However, this is why a pre-flop fold is best since he is probably only calling with a hand that beats me – now in this case that was not true and my read was dead on; but that doesn’t change the fact that I put myself in a bad spot but calling pre-flop. But again, you have to get in there and play to be successful in poker tournament – that’s why I said it was a cooler even though I know there are many aspects of this hand that prevent it from qualifying for what would traditionally be called a cooler.
In the end, calling pre was a mistake – but I don’t think it was a huge mistake – I had loads and loads more information than my opponent did – do I even need cards with that information and position?
“Fold – you have 4 high”
What am I supposed to do with that? Gee thanks. That makes just as much sense as hearing a novice player say AK is just ace high.
Pre-Flop
Now – I understand the fold pre-flop suggestions and even agree with them; in hindsight I should have folded pre-flop or 3-bet; flating was the worst option that I had, and that’s the one I chose. The 3-bet is not a very good option either because I’m nearly certain he calls anyway.
That said – this is tournament poker and you have to get in there and play; we all know that. If I know a 3-bet isn’t going to earn a fold and will instantly make the pot larger than I want it to be with a speculative hand while simultaneously trying to make my opponent pay for the information is blatantly giving away - a flat call starts to show some merit; I can’t take advantage of the information he is giving away by folding – that was my thought process at the table as well. If I hit the flop good things happen and if he misses the flop like he will 70% of the time I can steal it.
Now, in hindsight – I wish I had just folded both from a results-oriented standpoint and a non-results orientated standpoint – but at the time, my thinking made send to me.
Flop
My opponent is not betting on the come here; I know that. He could have a club kicker but that’s it. I wanted to raise the flop, but talked myself into taking a chance to increase value with nearly any additional course of action I chose. If a club doesn’t fall I can expect him to barrel the turn and I can easily extract lots of value. The whole idea of calling pre-flop with this hand was to flop big and crack – raising the flop and having him fold is a disaster.
Turn
When the club falls I have to assume he has a club kicker; that is until he all but tells me that he doesn’t. Yet I thought that he improved his hand. I didn’t think he had something like 99 for a couple of reasons; his pre-flop action was indicative that he opened light (which is not 99 in his mind) and he wouldn’t have led the flop without at least a pair – probably an ace. So, that really limits the combos he can have here – and it’s not a Hellmuth soul read.
After his check I could check back which could make him turn his hand into a bluff on the river, but there are a lot of cards that I don’t want to see (i.e. another club, any paint, any ace, or a board pair in case he did have a set). I thought he had aces up and could talk him into stacking by shoving – and that’s exactly what happened.
However, this is why a pre-flop fold is best since he is probably only calling with a hand that beats me – now in this case that was not true and my read was dead on; but that doesn’t change the fact that I put myself in a bad spot but calling pre-flop. But again, you have to get in there and play to be successful in poker tournament – that’s why I said it was a cooler even though I know there are many aspects of this hand that prevent it from qualifying for what would traditionally be called a cooler.
In the end, calling pre was a mistake – but I don’t think it was a huge mistake – I had loads and loads more information than my opponent did – do I even need cards with that information and position?
Beanfacekilla
Legend
Silver Level
Listen here man....
You.post on a forum, and I presume you want input.
I say fold, you have 4 high.
Now you act rude to myself, Duggs, and a few others.
"Gee thanks" about my comment of folding preflop?
What am I supposed to say? You want me to write paragraphs about why you should fold preflop with a super duper speculative hand? You should wait for a better spot. That's all there is to it.
You are calling preflop really needing to smash the flop, and when you do, you flat call. What else do you need to raise OTF? Flop quads 4-4-4????
It makes about as much sense as a novice saying AK is only ace high?
See here's the thing:
We are just offering input. My input is "FOLD. YOU HAVE 4 HIGH."
It is what I wanted to say. That is where you went wrong. You are flat calling a big raise with a crappy hand that you should fold. If you are gonna play, raise.
But you think you know everything. We are all wrong, you were right. You had him beat until the river....
Whatever man. Don't post here if you can't handle simple responses.
You played the hand awful from start to finish.
You are the novice, and we are all trying to help. You get all bent out of shape, defensive, and confrontational. You have a big chip on your shoulder. You don't want advice, you want us to tell you what a great player you are, tough break, blah blah blah.
I will never offer you any input ever again. Play 4 high all you want. Ship on boards with 4 to a flush. Get stacked. I don't care what you do.
I just think you act really defensive and kind of jerky. You think you are better than you are, and you are results oriented.
Edit: unsubbed. Done with this.
You.post on a forum, and I presume you want input.
I say fold, you have 4 high.
Now you act rude to myself, Duggs, and a few others.
"Gee thanks" about my comment of folding preflop?
What am I supposed to say? You want me to write paragraphs about why you should fold preflop with a super duper speculative hand? You should wait for a better spot. That's all there is to it.
You are calling preflop really needing to smash the flop, and when you do, you flat call. What else do you need to raise OTF? Flop quads 4-4-4????
It makes about as much sense as a novice saying AK is only ace high?
See here's the thing:
We are just offering input. My input is "FOLD. YOU HAVE 4 HIGH."
It is what I wanted to say. That is where you went wrong. You are flat calling a big raise with a crappy hand that you should fold. If you are gonna play, raise.
But you think you know everything. We are all wrong, you were right. You had him beat until the river....
Whatever man. Don't post here if you can't handle simple responses.
You played the hand awful from start to finish.
You are the novice, and we are all trying to help. You get all bent out of shape, defensive, and confrontational. You have a big chip on your shoulder. You don't want advice, you want us to tell you what a great player you are, tough break, blah blah blah.
I will never offer you any input ever again. Play 4 high all you want. Ship on boards with 4 to a flush. Get stacked. I don't care what you do.
I just think you act really defensive and kind of jerky. You think you are better than you are, and you are results oriented.
Edit: unsubbed. Done with this.
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redwards92
never going to move up
Silver Level
Basically all I have to say is this:
If I want to take advantage of this guys weak UTG raise then I 3bet preflop and fold to a 4bet/take down the pot right there.
If he flats my 3b I just cbet whatever flops that miss his range the most(he is a rock and clueless, he won't be thinking about your range) or flops that hit my hand hard.
Then with your flop you just miss value vs various draws and middle pair/ top pair type hands as well as even 2pairs and sets.
As played when the turn comes off a club it makes no sense at all to overbet shove here without knowing what your opponent has(which you don't) because A) His range conatins tons of clubs and B) You are pretty much getting called only by hands that beat you( a club) and getting folds from everything you beat
This is why I was wondering why you made the thread?
Now that I have re read your post you don't really ask anything about the hand other then
"Is this just a cooler"
What do you mean by that? Is it a cooler that you got it in ahead and lost to a 4 outer?
Yeah, it is. It should be pretty easy to realize that which is why I am confused as to whether or not there is more behind your question or if you are literally just asking if this is a cooler or not?
lol
If I want to take advantage of this guys weak UTG raise then I 3bet preflop and fold to a 4bet/take down the pot right there.
If he flats my 3b I just cbet whatever flops that miss his range the most(he is a rock and clueless, he won't be thinking about your range) or flops that hit my hand hard.
Then with your flop you just miss value vs various draws and middle pair/ top pair type hands as well as even 2pairs and sets.
As played when the turn comes off a club it makes no sense at all to overbet shove here without knowing what your opponent has(which you don't) because A) His range conatins tons of clubs and B) You are pretty much getting called only by hands that beat you( a club) and getting folds from everything you beat
This is why I was wondering why you made the thread?
Now that I have re read your post you don't really ask anything about the hand other then
"Is this just a cooler"
What do you mean by that? Is it a cooler that you got it in ahead and lost to a 4 outer?
Yeah, it is. It should be pretty easy to realize that which is why I am confused as to whether or not there is more behind your question or if you are literally just asking if this is a cooler or not?
lol
Jacki Burkhart
long winded rambler...
Silver Level
So the above quote from you is a leak I believe. I understand completely where you are coming from. I'm not the best at picking up tells but since I've been playing live for 5+ years now I'm starting to get the hang of it and usually if I've been at a table a couple of hours I have picked up a couple tells. The most frustrating thing about looking for tells is that even when you find a good one, you don't always get a chance to use it, or somebody else beats you to it.
I know you can't use the tell if you don't play the pot, but you still must be patient and wait for the right spot. Poker is a game of patience. When the right tell comes together with the right hand and the right position and the right flop it is a glorious feeling....like you are annointed by the poker gods....but if you try to FORCE it all to come together when you've only got 1 piece of the puzzle then you're just asking for trouble....
p.s. I don't think I'm any kind of a poker genius, sometimes its just easier to see other players leaks than our own. check out this hand I horribly misplayed if you want to feel better about yourself: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/340-nlhe-mtt-deep-stacked-flop-233696/
TheKid84
Legend
Silver Level
Pretty interesting convo going on here - might as well throw down my good for nothing two cents
A lot of what I've read here is "fold preflop blah blah blah" stuff. You've established the mentality this villain has with 3 of 5 hands played as raises already. His splashing the pot style is what we like to see.
I'm just going to say it - I'm cool with calling in position with suited connectors (yes, even 34s). I'm also quit the nit, but you always can't play by the book with these characters. (disclaimer - as long as your stack can afford the whiff on the flop I'm cool with it)
Where I started to frown at this was the 4th club shove against this character. A straight on a board where the turn shows 4 of the same suit is scary. As you've witnesses, 2 pair is prettier to that board than a straight is (you have some outs). With the knowledge that this guy can play some mediocre hands, it is very feasible he's holding a club. I would say if by chance he had a club, he's prob call any 10 of clubs or higher on your push.
Or maybe I just don't have the stones in my pants to push with 4 to a suit in position to a bigger stack with a straight. Or maybe I'm just that bad? I dunno - but the way that's playing to the turn, I might just check to the river and hope to scrap a couple chips my way.
A lot of what I've read here is "fold preflop blah blah blah" stuff. You've established the mentality this villain has with 3 of 5 hands played as raises already. His splashing the pot style is what we like to see.
I'm just going to say it - I'm cool with calling in position with suited connectors (yes, even 34s). I'm also quit the nit, but you always can't play by the book with these characters. (disclaimer - as long as your stack can afford the whiff on the flop I'm cool with it)
Where I started to frown at this was the 4th club shove against this character. A straight on a board where the turn shows 4 of the same suit is scary. As you've witnesses, 2 pair is prettier to that board than a straight is (you have some outs). With the knowledge that this guy can play some mediocre hands, it is very feasible he's holding a club. I would say if by chance he had a club, he's prob call any 10 of clubs or higher on your push.
Or maybe I just don't have the stones in my pants to push with 4 to a suit in position to a bigger stack with a straight. Or maybe I'm just that bad? I dunno - but the way that's playing to the turn, I might just check to the river and hope to scrap a couple chips my way.
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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
I appreciate the opinion and I know everyone thinks I’m Hellmuth; "why did I even post if I already knew everything?”
But I get really frustrated with the by the book – “fold pre-flop…duh” and “I can’t believe you’re so stupid to play a 3 4” responses. You, know, I read that chapter too! That’s the point of a poker forum; to talk about the situations not covered in the book.
Maybe I should have been more patient and waited for an opportunity to take advantage of this guy. He had no clue and kept giving the information away, I had no reason to believe that was going to stop; but – I didn’t and I thought I could get him now.
Like I said, in hindsight, I wish I would have folded – but at the time a pre-flop call seemed like a good option to me and the rest of the action was determined by the information that was being given to me; except for the flat call on the flop which was a straight up gamble at the time I made that decision.
Yet, even though I wish I would have folded, you can’t completely discount playing this hand here – and if I raise pre-flop he calls anyway and we’re in a similar spot. Now in that case, that would have been better; if he barreled the flop for something like $12K I could shove the flop and win a nice pot when he folds – but, I mean, how often am I going to flop a straight?
The point of this post was to describe the hand, my thought process, and my actions. If you just look at the cards, it’s a spew just like Duggs said. But there is so much more information here and so many more factors that must be considered; maybe I didn’t do a good enough job of explaining that or putting that information in the post; it is hard to do by the way – especially when most people don’t read the damn thing anyway.
duggs
Killing me softly
Silver Level
Preflop is a mistake but I don't think it's a huge error compared with flatting flop, his range contains a bunch of Ax with a club hands an he probably won't even fold a decent club since he is such a station post given reads, but especially given reads we should play hands that flop lots f equity occasionally, rather than hands that flop a little equity often
Arjonius
Legend
Silver Level
You had 55k before the hand and put in 3100 pre-. He bet 6k on the flop, so if you raise and he folds, you increase your stack by 11k or 20%. Factoring in that your baby straight on a monotone board will be facing a flush draw a fair portion of the time, how is this a disaster?
After the turn was a fourth club that improved him to two pair, he checked and then considered folding to your shove. Had he folded, you would have won the same 11k. And I'd guess that if it had been any other club, he'd have been more likely to fold.
If the turn hadn't been a club, it's at least questionable how many more chips he'd have been willing to put into the pot. Will he bet again or check call with his top pair 9 kicker and no redraw on a monotone board? Maybe, but also maybe not. Assuming the turn and river are both blanks, you might get one street of value, but two seems doubtful, and doubling you up seems rather unlikely.
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Ranny
Legend
Bronze Level
Your turn shove screams you don't have the flush, why would you shove a flush at this point? I have no objection to playing the 34 but after you hit the flushing flop you have to raise or basically call/check down rest of hand.
Is he as bad as you think? Just because he plays differently and maybe not optimally he still might have been a successful player for the last 50 or so years. He might have read that your shove meant you don't have the flush and top 2 might be good, also if he's wrong he still has 4 outs.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4
Is he as bad as you think? Just because he plays differently and maybe not optimally he still might have been a successful player for the last 50 or so years. He might have read that your shove meant you don't have the flush and top 2 might be good, also if he's wrong he still has 4 outs.
Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk 4
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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
Very true – I guess it felt like I was losing value by flopping a straight and raising my opponent out of the hand; but you’re right + 20% would have been good given the situation.
The turn action is so interesting and it’s so hard to describe in here. I wasn’t even watching the flop when the turn came out but watched my opponent’s eyes bounce off his stack like a basketball; yet after that occurred he was blatantly and obviously dejected. Now I don’t know how into tells everyone is, but I am into them big time, and there are some very standard tells out there that go all the back to like 1972; this is one of them. You can read all about it in any of Mike Caro’s books.
As much as I hated that club (after I finally looked at it) I knew he hated it more yet kind of liked it at the same time. Maybe it’s a stretch to say I knew he had A9, but he did have one of exactly five hands –all of which will want to play if I exhibit what he perceives as weakness – that’s where the shove comes from. Maybe it was wrong, I don’t know, but it certainly wasn’t without thought or direct intent – and it worked like a charm – but maybe I should have never been in that spot.
Now if the turn was a non-club; I believe he would have barreled and that was the motivation behind flatting the flop. Was it wrong, probably, but again, not without thought – he barrels, I shove and the same thing happens I guess.
So that’s the thing here – I played it bad, I played it well, you’re entitled to your opinion, but it seems that in at least 2/3 of all conceivable scenarios I lose my stack to the board pairing on the river; which just adds credibility to a pre-flop fold. I don’t know, I guess I just wanted to talk it out.
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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
Well, you may laugh at me here, but I thought I knew what he had (and I was right as it turns out), I know, start laughing. So that’s exactly what I wanted him to think – that I was representing the flush but didn’t really have it.
He was pretty bad – you know the older generation thinks about the game differently. To most of them, a paired ace on the flop regardless of kicker strength is a good hand. Personally, I think this is due to the fact that everyone in that age bracket grew up playing stud or some variation of stud; where a paired ace is a good hand and may even help qualify for low – those are hands that they have kept their entire lives.
One thing about him is that he was aggressive pre-flop, which I would normally compliment him on, except that in this case he was also blatantly position ignorant. And post flop was like reading a book – it was easy and I wasn’t the only one trying to take advantage of it – and we still couldn’t beat him until he beat himself about 5 hours later.
vinylspiros
PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Im going to dare and say that i don't really mind the flat pre OR the way you played this hand.
I would definitely preffer a raise on the flop .
The shove on the turn im not too crAzy about.
I am definitely not a nit and DO make these type of calls. I mean they are not ideal but if your deep enough i dont think the flat pre(esp on the button) is as bad as some make it sound.
All in all keep in mind that the advice given here is well intended and nobody is trying to belittle you or your game. They are just trying to tell you what is the best way to play it.
Sure TJ is better than 34 but if the board runs 345 or56x 2tones then 34 can easily be the nuts. And this is profitable if we are deep enough versus polarised villain who probably has high cards high pairs etc ...right?
P.S: i really liked ramdeebams analysis over the hand. Solid stuff there.
P.S.S: after looking at the hand again my advice is.......3bet SHOVE PRE...LOLOL
I would definitely preffer a raise on the flop .
The shove on the turn im not too crAzy about.
I am definitely not a nit and DO make these type of calls. I mean they are not ideal but if your deep enough i dont think the flat pre(esp on the button) is as bad as some make it sound.
All in all keep in mind that the advice given here is well intended and nobody is trying to belittle you or your game. They are just trying to tell you what is the best way to play it.
Sure TJ is better than 34 but if the board runs 345 or56x 2tones then 34 can easily be the nuts. And this is profitable if we are deep enough versus polarised villain who probably has high cards high pairs etc ...right?
P.S: i really liked ramdeebams analysis over the hand. Solid stuff there.
P.S.S: after looking at the hand again my advice is.......3bet SHOVE PRE...LOLOL
blackplanet
Rock Star
Silver Level
I really enjoyed reading everyones opinion on this play. I don't understand why someone would say the hand is too weak to play. He obviously decided to outplay the guy before the flop. I guess you could of chosen a better spot but if you have a good read I'd say go for it.
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ssbn743
Visionary
Silver Level
A agree that flatting the flop was a big time mistake; however, I chose that course of action for a reason.
I said I almost always raise there, but this time I thought that I’d see one more card to gain more value (which if he doesn’t barrel the turn becomes a moot point). As the dealer was burning and turning, I was thinking, “no club, no club, no club” – and if a club fell I was prepared to fold.
The club on the turn kills my hand in the absence of information that in this case was available to me; that’s why the rest of the hand played out like it did.
But, in this case, is it correct to chase value by flatting the flop?
We know that there are 10 clubs left in the deck and he may have 1. In and 9-handed game there 30 cards left in the deck after the flop is dealt. That’s 10/30, 1:2 or 33% that a club hits the turn, meaning that 66% or less if not all outs are available (which is nearly certainly the case), of the time a club does not hit.
As I said, I raise the flop nearly every time, but in the right situation a case can be made for flatting; right? Or am I totally out to lunch here?