ICM and Preflop Hand Ranges

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tmedicine

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OK, this is a no brainer for most, but I was just wondering, how do professional poker players adjust their preflop hand ranges with different ICM ranges in MTT poker, and be so accurate at it at the same time? It's incredible with some players because there is just so much to consider at all times. It must be challenging, is there a good really fast ICM calculator you guys use?
 
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AlexTheOwl

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I am not a pro, but I practice off the tables using PT4's ICM Quiz tool.
http://pokertrackertutorial.com/poker-tracker-icm-quiz-and-icm-calculator/

I think the paid versions of Icmizer and SitNGo Wizard have a similar quiz.

I review played hands that I am unsure of using the three free hands a day available in Icmizer.

After a while doing these exercises you develop a good feel for what ICM recommends, although I definitely do not get all of the marginal cases correct.
 
DaveE

DaveE

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I am not a pro, but I practice off the tables using PT4's ICM Quiz tool.
http://pokertrackertutorial.com/poker-tracker-icm-quiz-and-icm-calculator/

I think the paid versions of Icmizer and SitNGo Wizard have a similar quiz.

I review played hands that I am unsure of using the three free hands a day available in Icmizer.

After a while doing these exercises you develop a good feel for what ICM recommends, although I definitely do not get all of the marginal cases correct.

I'd like to have a go at creating an ICM spreadsheet that could calculate by position, players left etc. Do you know of any good online (open and free:)) source material?
 
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AlexTheOwl

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I'd like to have a go at creating an ICM spreadsheet that could calculate by position, players left etc. Do you know of any good online (open and free:)) source material?

I don't. I get the impression that the math is fairly complex.

Pot odds, counting combinations, and the "rule of two" and "rule of four" are as mathematical as I get. High School stuff, and I'm prone to silly mistakes at that. But I'm glad to use the results of other people's mathematical skills.

It's not a spreadsheet, but I think Icmizer's free mode does the job that you are trying to do.
 
DaveE

DaveE

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I don't. I get the impression that the math is fairly complex.

Pot odds, counting combinations, and the "rule of two" and "rule of four" are as mathematical as I get. High School stuff, and I'm prone to silly mistakes at that. But I'm glad to use the results of other people's mathematical skills.

It's not a spreadsheet, but I think Icmizer's free mode does the job that you are trying to do.

Thanks, I'll have a look at it :top:
 
Pharaoh39

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I would recommend reading Kill Everyone and Raiser's Edge. They have charts in both.
 
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AlexTheOwl

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I would recommend reading Kill Everyone and Raiser's Edge. They have charts in both.

Good point. There are a lot of push/fold charts out there, including some free ones. They are a great place to start, much better than intuition.

Charts have trouble accounting for varying prize structures, how far away you are from the bubble, how many other players are in the hand, and the estimated range of those other players. To get a feel for the right answers when those things are taken into account, I find it useful to use the other tools I mentioned for practice.
 
DaveE

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I would recommend reading Kill Everyone and Raiser's Edge. They have charts in both.

Thanks Pharaoh:) I remember seeing some good charts a few years ago. It was probably in Kill Everyone.

@tmedicine, sorry for the thread detour but I think we're both looking for the same result:)
 
Pharaoh39

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Does anyone know how to calculate "bubble factor"?
 
vitalii029

vitalii029

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I don't use calculators I'm trying to anticipate but rarely get))and the pros play on autopilot they have a calculator at the head they calculate everything in my head that's my opinion
 
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AlexTheOwl

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Does anyone know how to calculate "bubble factor"?

From Kill Everyone? I don't know how to calculate the factor itself, just that it is derived somehow from ICM. I know how to use the factor they give in their tables in calculations:

Express the chip pot odds in a x:1 ratio, then divide x by the bubble factor.

So if I am getting 3:1 on a call, and the bubble factor is 1.5, 3/1.5 = 2. I should use 2:1 as my "real" pot odds, because of the value of survival in a tournament.

As a practical matter, I'm not doing that at the table, and ICM tools incorporate it into their results off the table . . . What works best for me is reviewing examples.
 
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AviCKter

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I don't use calculators I'm trying to anticipate but rarely get))and the pros play on autopilot they have a calculator at the head they calculate everything in my head that's my opinion

Umm, NO! They calculate it off the table and remember those ranges.
 
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AviCKter

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I don't quite understand your reply

I thought you are implying that the pros do it while they're in a game, they don't do that. They've worked on their ranges using a lot of different what-if scenarios (like what-if I have this number of chips and this is the distribution of chips across the table, and this is the prize distributions). Using softwares/simulations to come up with different ranges, for each position, they should be playing in different games/scenarios. This is tough work to do because you have to remember a lot of ranges, even remembering a simple push-fold chart or pre-flop opening ranges can be tiring. But the more you can do these, the better your results will be. :cool:
 
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AviCKter

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OK, this is a no brainer for most, but I was just wondering, how do professional poker players adjust their preflop hand ranges with different ICM ranges in MTT poker, and be so accurate at it at the same time? It's incredible with some players because there is just so much to consider at all times. It must be challenging, is there a good really fast ICM calculator you guys use?


ICMizer or Holdem Resources Calculator, both does the job. ICMizer is faster, but only does all-in situations.

P.S. Don't use these softwares while you're playing, they're restricted and the poker network will send you a warning, & if you repeat it over and over again, they might ban you from their room.
 
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liuouhgkres

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You should have default ranges worked out in your head, and adjust at table depending on situation towards looser or tighter side.
 
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Tylor Mendez

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It's just for people trying to get value out of stack size /vs\ value of folding a small pair or a lighter hand like J-10 suited, in the hopes someone will be knocked out, allowing a pay jump.

I wouldn't stress it too much. Play to win, but also make good folds. That's all it really is.
 
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