This is our December week 2 strategy discussion for the CardsChat Forum Challenge. Please read this article and discuss it in this thread:

Short Stack Strategy

We have all been there - trying to survive a tournament when your stack is short. Knowing when your stack is short is critical.

Make sure you watch the video that is included in the article!

In my opinion to survive the short Stack there are two ways depending on the tournament, if the tournaments are turbos you have to play as many hands as possible to raise the chips because the blinds and before you are going down chips, be in a good position and push all your chips to be able to duplicate, take advantage of those weak players, try to see many times the flop but without risking many chips and detect those bad players who pay without linking anything, and take advantage of that moment and be able to climb as fast as possible, since most online tournaments are turbos, slow tournaments are more likely and more time to increase your chips without playing many hands, just waiting for the right moment to throw your chips to the sky.

I like the chart showing how to play at the three stages of short- stackedness (is that a word?). It is too easy to get so frustrated and ship it at once, especially if it was a bad beat that put you in this position. I have, on rare occasion come back from the dead....didn't really have any strategy; just got lucky. There was one time when I was in the vertically challenged category. My face was downcast. I knew that I had to get aggressive, but so did the rest of the table. I got lucky with the best run of three hands I ever had...AA, doubled up, AK, doubled up again and KK...hit it big (4 callers) because nobody could believe that lightning could strike 3 times in a row.
The chart gives me the guide to channel my emotions properly.

The only thing that I would add is at curent state of the game it's not 10BB went you are short... it's often much higher. For exmpl. it's common for players at ABI20+ to shove for 25bb with much worst hands than ~3%. Game is changing/evolving and it will be too nitty to shove/3bet only something like ... say KQs+, especially against regs who atleast try to play GTO, beacuse their shoving ranges.... well thay can be a biut loose to say the least.

I have been told the <10BB all in shove, but it may be that I have been forced to that by playing the other two stages wrongly. It is great to have the advice for playing >20<30 BB's and >10<20 BB's.
I guess I was playing the Big stack envy too loose ending up in the Vertically challenged stage and then playing to small bets pre-flop or even limping too much.
Let's see how this works playing freerolls!

The article was valuable in terms of general concepts. I think though, that like most articles of this nature it tries to boil things down to a few simple rules which really can't be done. I'd much rather just be left with the concepts for me to decide how to apply.

I watched the video. It made my head hurt. Way too much math for a situation where nobody is giving what you do or don't do any real thought.

IMHO the best short stack strategy is not to get that short in the first place. Once you're to the point where any bet is going to be called, you're in a crap shoot situation, and the thing that matters the most is luck. If you get lucky, you can turn the whole tournament around and make it to the final table as the article says. But your AQ (for example) HAS to hold up against the any-two that you're going to get called with a lot of the time.

The categories listed in the link give me a little concern. Anybody who's been at a final table knows that 20 - 30 BB isn't a short stack, it's quite normal, and even sometimes very healthy.

The article suggests when to stop limping. I try to NEVER limp into a hand, ESPECIALLY when I've got a real healthy stack. That's not to say that I never limp, but I certainly don't do it as a rule determined by my stack size.

It also says when to forget about defending your big blind. I rarely 'defend' my blind, but I do make an aggressive move sometimes in the blinds with good cards against one or MAYBE two tight players.

If I'm short and happen to be in the big blind at the time and get a good hand there's no way that I'm not going to go for broke in that circumstance (UNLESS we're one or two away from the bubble, and then only maybe).

The article also says to only play 'monsters' when you're 'vertically challenged'. I would submit that's how you got to be short in the first place, i.e., waiting for a monster.

When I get to 8 BB it is fit or fold poker.When I am at 10-15 BB I can play premium hands 99+ but I think at 25-35 BB there is still plenty of poker to play.If I am over 150 I just sit out as the risk is too great for my stack.

This was very interesting, and had some good points.
For beginners the guide :
Big Stack Envy 20-30BB Tighten up, play big hands and position, eliminate set mining with small pairs (<77), stop bluffing, forget about defending your big blind.
Vertically Challenged 10-20BB Only play monsters, be willing to go all-in on a pre-flop re-raise, increase pre-flop bet sizing, no limping or blind stealing, stop set mining with middle or small pocket pairs (<JJ).
Small stack complex <10BB Shove first playable hand.
This is great advice for them - however, once you get too low, and you keep getting crappy hands, you may have no choice but to bluff.
My theory is that software rewards aggressive players - I know as I have lost to many times with good hands , to aggressive bad ones.

So, keeping an eye on what is flopping out helps when you are down below 10BB.

That way you can at least try to get back up with a mediocre hand. Then, you may also try just raising enough to get the others to fold, and try to slowly built up. ( I have done that to)

If you are way below 10BB - you haven't got much choice but to shove and then pray

The most important contextual factors to consider are:

Your position in the hand and (stackwise) on the table
Relative stack size on your table (and relative position)
Tournament position and pace - Are we on the bubble? Has it become a shovefest?

As always, the general advice of the article is sound. The video wouldn't play smoothly for me, but I'm assuming it contains the same sage advice.

It's hard to sum it all up into hard and fast guidelines. I have been on tables where the chip leader has 10-12BB and nobody seems to notice, min raises from out of position that fold to 8BB shoves, etc. There is a "Centroll" on PartyPoker where you start with 5BB - it's OK if you bust, you can rebuy for $1 !!(and get <5BB). Some people think that they are Stu Unger and get crazy near the bubble with their short stack (and they're almost never Stu Unger).

If others acting after you in the hand are shorter than you, be aware that your PF raise may be reraised or shoved. Shorter stacks are also vulnerable to steals (especially PF) because they don't want to bust. Big stacks need to respect your actions if you are short and playing like a rock (which you should be <10BB).

My best advice - bluff shove the hand you get dealt right before you are dealt pocket Aces twice in a row. Show the bluff after everyone folds. This should assure at least a double up.

The main feature of the game with a short stack is that we are forced to switch to push / fold, because we have not enough chips to play postflop and we need to find the situation to open all-in hoping to steal the blinds or to double up your stack

I really enjoyed reading this article as a refresher for how things can be in a tournament and how players will be reacting to their relative stack size and stage of the tournament. On the whole I agree with much of what is said in the article and I also agree with the comments above from Matt Ryder (and others) about trying to understand why you are short stacked in the first place (notwithstanding this will happen to us all for various reasons in many tournaments.

From the article, I particularly like the quote from Matt Vaughan. So often do you see players get hit in a big pot and find themselves short stacked, simply to go all in next hand with ATC and hope for the best, like all hope has gone. All hope is not gone, but have some patience (within the time you may have left before you are blinded and ante'd out) and pick your spot carefully. Don't act on the rebound...unless of course that monster has just landed!

BB

You guys are really doing a great job of actually reading the article and either giving feedback on it - or stating your own thoughts on the topic.

That is exactly what we are looking for - keep up the good work!

If your short stacked I think you really need to look for your spots ie, will the villan in the bb fold to a min raise, who will a stop and go work on, who is going to spite call me,math call me,icm call me,or clown call me etc.

I'm also wondering what's more important - having a good hand but being in early position when there are a lot of players left to act who could wake up with an even better hand or having a pretty mediocre hand but being in late position where everyone has folded to you. The first maximizes the chance of winning if called the second maximizes your chance of not getting called. Late in a tourney when the blinds are high and you are nearing the money bubble, picking up the blinds can improve your stack by a big percentage, so under those circumstances maybe the second alternative is better then?

The more I read these CC articles, the more I feel they need some new editing according to the game is evolving in modern day poker. I'm no expert but some of the stuff seems very outdated or against the modern day play.

For an example
"Let's say you have 15 BBs on the button and it folds to you. If you shove and both blinds fold, you have gained only 2-3 BBs. Risking your entire tournament life with marginal cards just to pick up 2-3 blinds is not a sound long-term strategy."

This is very wrong in my book. Good marginal hands have decent equity vs many ranges & there are only two players left vs getting some chips back to your stack. So this is a definite shove in my book and many modern day pros will say the same.

If you play this passive in the modern day game where everyone studies push/fold charts & makes +EV decisions, it'll be really hard to be profitable.

"It's also time to reconsider your posture when it comes to defending your big blind. If you've got less than 30 BBs left, don't waste any more chips calling with junk from the big blind, no matter what the pot odds might indicate."

This is also quite wrong. Profitable players defend very light in the modern day poker. One of the most important things is your table image. If you only play your good hands defending, raising & 3betting very good players will have a very fun time playing against you. They'd easily steal pots with very crap hands & will know when to back down when you show aggression unless they've better.
So as everything you need to balance your ranges & try to fight for every blind there is.

But of course in the later stages of the tournaments most people are short stacked so there'll be many shoves, shove calls so it comes down to the push/fold charts that are created for the purpose of playing the long term profitable game & of course luck.

So study good push/fold charts make +EV decisions & evolve with the modern day game.

There are some good guidelines in this article to base your short stack game around.
The one thing that I did take issue with was with the strategy from playing a 10bb stack, when your this short you’ve run out of time to wait for hands like AQ+ and JJs+, I don’t see the point of folding down and doubling up to 10-12bbs because you haven’t really changed you situation in the tournament.

If you're having difficulty with deciding which hands you need to shove/fold pre-flop (short-stack complex) there's a very useful program that trains you on this, based on mathematical probabilities.

https://www.snapshove.com/

the main thing is luck

Originally Posted by lastpostal

the main thing is luck

Luck isn't strategy discussion.

Very good "short-stack play for dummies" article! In fact I have used those guidelines too. But as always in poker, "it depends". I mean that there are some more concepts to take into cosideration when playing short-stacked.
"Fold Equity" is one of them, which actually increases according to your image at the table. I mean that there are times I don't shove my 12 or 11 BBs, because a standard raise seems more powerfull, being the nit that I am. Most of times, a shove looks like a move to scare people off, so, more experienced players will call with a wider range, putting you on low pocket pairs, having no trouble flipping for your chips. On the other hand, a standard raise looks inviting, ergo more dangerous...
Another concept is "stop and go". A call pre-flop and a donk-shove post flop might be a better move sometimes.
Limping is almost never an option, even with a huge stack, as you never get any info on what others might hold, making post-flop assessments impossible.
Cheers!

I have literally got up and walked away from the table so that I was not tempted to continue playing. Online I have found that I can have AA, be short stack and if I go all in I always lose in that situation because online it always seems the goal of the algorithms is to get you out.

depends on how short you are, i mean if you are short stack like 4 r 3 times the big blind you can not call with a pair of deuces or even 88. may be a pair of aces or kings, may be a A.K
is not the same as if you were 15 times the big blind,

i try too to limp into a hand and see a flop for cheap and even with not a good hand, and each time it make me just loose more chips, and makes players see flops, i will stop limping

i think its a just a matter of time till players will learn more and more about poker

It was a good article. I often got short-stack in a tournament. i have been playing like the article recommends but sometimes variance take you out. Yesterday i got out with AQs 9BB all in preflop BTN, against 2 Villains, Co and BB, CO had just limp, and BB called with J8o, CO called with A4s, Flop hit J, BB won. I have played tight, but sometimes with a good hand i semi bluff and lose half or 3/4 my stack. I will stop doing that for exchange.

When my stack is less of M8 stack my strategy I play only push or fold.
I like play open push, not call. I take into the position and the size of the stack:

EP - Early Position, when stack M8-M6 I open push with range 8%-12%;
when stack M5-M3 range 13%-20%.
MP - Middle Position, when stack M8-M6 range 10%-20%;
when stack M5-M3 range 20%-30%.
LP - Late Possition, when stack M8-M6 range 23%-33%;
when stack M5-M3 range 30-43%.
I play open push very loose from SB, when stack M8-M6 open push with range 53%-60%;
when stack M5-M3 range 64-73%.
Compatible with ICM

We all go through this situation in a Mtts, I prefer to have a Pair in hand or Cards connected to be in late position or button, raise the bet or go there to try to double, As advice, I never pay an all in unless they are KK or AA letters, I have always criticized players who, being close to the collections, slow down the tournament by consuming time, I advise them to better try to fold or get chips, why settle?

I found this article very interesting. The video building out the game tree of the outcomes of moving all in was very helpful. I was going to suggest it be added to the Cards Chat Youtube channel only to find it was already there. Position as always plays a big role and a keen understanding of your opponents to your immediate left, to know when to shove and when not to shove with a short stack.

Like the article said you need to be aware of how many big blinds you have and how long you could potentially fold until a playable hand becomes available.

It's important to pay attention to table dynamics and position because you could potentially bluff on a tight players blinds from late position instead of waiting for a playable hand. I like the little chart at the end because as your stack dwindles you really need to cut the fat off of your starting hand range unless you are in the critical "small stack complex stage" in which desperate times calls for desperate measures.

Have patience, I've seen some players give up when becoming a short stack and they proceed to donate their remaining chips. I've also seen players from 1 big blind come back to win the entire tournament, so it's important to never give up! All you need is a chip and chair.

One of the biggest issues I've seen with a lot of study guides break up playing "short" at 20BB and 12BB. I feel this article actually breaks it down one more level and gives good advice on how to play the almost short, the technically short, and the shove or fold stacks.

However, other considerations must also be taken into account. Table dynamics is important as a tighter table you may be able to steal more often, versus a crazy table where a short stack hand selection must be altered to account for the types of hands that will call an all in. A tight table with 25BB one should be able to use position to gain advantage in stealing the blinds with a wider range, while a very short stack needs to be aware of the LAG / MANAICS' when deciding to shove.

Another just as important factor is the stage of a tournament. I was fortunate enough to play in Party Poker's title fight back in November. I started day 2 with 12.5BB, and 40 people needed to drop to make the money. Luckily eliminations moved quickly, and by folding literally every hand including AKs, I made the money. Further away from the money I may have to take chances to avoid going below 10BB,

However, one final comment. Poker players must avoid being predictable, as this is information that can definitely be used against you. While you should know how to play the short stack properly, being predictable will make you vulnerable.

I don't like to be short stacked because it's hard for me to catch up this situation.
I think that I rely too much on luck.
But I have to be more patient and vigilant.
Creating a tree of outcome will help me for sure

3 short stack
I ususally play 1-2 games at a time, being short stacked ,you need to be ablew to shove many less playable hands especially with blinds increasing
If you happen to haveless then 10 Bb ,it is apprioiate to open a far wider range, and i would say the other players are doing the same

this is very hard for me . As a rule, I wait for good cards and I go to all-in

I usually play as the article says with the short stack, and it's very disappointing because I usually lose them against to marginal hands but it's very good when it's favorable because it brings you back to the game.
and I take like stack short pile from 10 or 15 big blinds, depending on the structure of the tournament.

Low stack is standart situtation in turbo tournaments, and standart descision was push-fold. But sometimes i can limp with AA or KK in early position, in hope to take more chips from limpers.

The article is only a common phrase, in fact a very big deal is about luck, everyone chooses a strategy depending on their experience. And since I have went badly, even with the nicest hand me endure with the little stuff.

So when I'm short (and happens often), I usually wait for a position when I'm behind a dealer, and I attack with ollin, I have nothing to wait, unless I'm close to entering money, then I refrain from attacking, when I get into prizes then easier and I play on big cards, so if the right card comes, super, usually there is a little weaker game when about 100 players remain before the prize.

I applied when I'm short stack is to play push / fold

When I am short stacked, I pushed up any playable hand: including all suited cards or connectors. The only exception for me is when it is a bubble phase, and I could get ITM with rather conservative play. Then it is worth to postpone shoves once the bubble is over ...

short stack less than 10 bb usually i wait for a decent hand to shove even with small pairs or A with any kicker when blinds going up you dont have time to wait for a better hand luck is part of the game so you cross the fingers

The problem with short stack is that it forces you to do something eventually, because you'll get eaten by the blinds and Ante's.

It's indeed important not to go all-in right after you've lost a huge amount of chips. Other players will call very often and most of the times they'll win and you'll be eliminated.

Sadly, a big problem of freerolls is that early in the game, everyone starts going all-in pre-flop. Just gambling. Or some raise the blind 9 times pre-flop, forcing you to make huge bets without having seen any cards.

After a while, it gets tougher to gain chips because there are more players with big stacks next to you who will -again- force you to make huge bets.

And then the blinds kick in, they start forcing you to only play a few hands. Even then, it happens often that you don't get what you want and you lose lots of chips, bringing you to the absolute danger zone.

So yeah, surviving a freeroll is really difficult and I end up with a short stack frequently. The trick is to stay cool and hope you can win chips with a great hand. The pro of being short stack is that multiple players will tend to call you as you make a big bet or go all-in. But then of course, don't go all-in before the flop, or your chances of winning are even smaller.

When we are in this situation we should not wait too long, we should not be too selective with our hand, although you should not go all-in with garbage either, it's a matter of not despair, I've been almost eliminated from some tournaments and I've managed to collect, little but I charged.

Short stack have some advantages, when you have good hand you may preflop allin and opps call, becouse think that you have something weak
Dont survive, just push allin and take money, yo!

Vertically Challenged is the most difficult category for me. I always make errors, that indicated in the article, when I has 10-20BB.
Tempting overcame me all time and I try to limp into a hand and see a flop for cheap. Perhaps I need to recognize my weaknesses. I do not like to sit and wait, it is much more interesting to create an action and try to win.

My style play super tight b4 in cash ,in cash will play more wildI'm challenging PS MTT cash leaderboard top 20 this week ,hope can make it

Woww I learned so much with this article. I realized I was making some big mistakes when having a short stack. Never herad before they were diffrent types of short stacks, so my vocabulary also increase there haha . The video taught me that iks not correct for anyone to be always all in with premium cards, that was ahuge mistake that new players as me make, believing that they are going to duplicate their stacks in no time. That Matt Vaughan quote is something that in my oppinion every player should consider as a must, you really need to breathe, and remember that you are still in the tournament, instead of getting crazy and start all in at every hand (most players do, I was once there hahaha)

Anyone knows me knows I'm usually short stacked early and on the bubble most of the tournament.
So what do I consider "adjustments to your normal play"?
I guess "vertically challenged" would be be most normal and "short stack complex" might be last resort.

But I don't agree with the "only options are fold or shove pre-flop".
Be selective all the way because your going to have to go all-in with "guns blazing" on any hand you want to see the flop.

Originally Posted by Gary_Heart

Anyone knows me knows I'm usually short stacked early and on the bubble most of the tournament.
So what do I consider "adjustments to your normal play"?
I guess "vertically challenged" would be be most normal and "short stack complex" might be last resort.

But I don't agree with the "only options are fold or shove pre-flop".
Be selective all the way because your going to have to go all-in with "guns blazing" on any hand you want to see the flop.

If <3 BB only allin or fold , call is not option, u jam hope less Player in for win ,if fold all hands will in cash, I will fold only K's or A's go jam !I play MTT in cash about 80% by that way !

Thanks for this article, it was very interesting. On the topic I read all discussions. I agree with almost all)) Like everyone else, I also had a situation when he was left with a short stack. Short Stack - this problem, but not globally. If you play agresivno and you have a small stack, about 10-20 big blinds, you become a little passive. Ignore the weak hands. Bluffing is also not an option. I do not recommend bluffing with a small stack, because it will find a donkey that will go all-in 7 2 and on the occasion he will win. Wait for the right moment, AA KK - what you need. If passive players, try to steal the blinds.


In general, do not give up, and you can.

I was going to shove J7s when I had 4bb in UTG+1 but as UTG had shoved his 8bb I just couldn't shove anymore

So it all depends when you can shove. My shove might of been called but I would of taken the chance if UTG had folded.

The flop was J7x

PokerStars - 75/150 Ante 15 NL - Holdem - 8 players
http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (UTG+1): 3.74 BB
MP: 12.91 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
MP+1: 5.39 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
CO: 60.35 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 22.22, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 9)
BTN: 34.65 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
SB: 8.04 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 10)
BB: 35.23 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG: 27.55 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)

8 players post ante of 0 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.3 BB) Hero has 7♣ J♣

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 7.94 BB and is all-in, fold, UTG calls 4.94 BB

Flop: (17.68 BB, 2 players) 7♠ J♠ 6♥

Turn: (17.68 BB, 2 players) 2♦

River: (17.68 BB, 2 players) 8♦

SB shows 9♠ 9♥ (One Pair, Nines)
(Pre 55%, Flop 76%, Turn 86%)
UTG shows T♥ A♣ (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 45%, Flop 24%, Turn 14%)
SB wins 17.68 BB

After losing a large part of the stack you need to keep calm. With a short stack, play soberly and do not attack the enemy's aggression. Strong hands play aggressively.

As a short stack , your task is very simple you can tight the range a bit
wait for it , push/fold strategy , you won't struggle with playing postflops and multiway pots.
and you have to use your botton position very well , I will push almost evey medium strenght hand on button , if my stack size is very similar to others on blinds , CO HJ can be very profitable aswell .