How do you play a 10-15BB stack in a MTT?

[A2345Razz]

Well, after starting this thread pre-WSOP One Drop, I have to talk about my bustout hand and some advice I got from teammates. First though, thanks everyone for the discussion. I hope next time I'm in this spot I'll take more time to consider all the factors and options. Here was the structure, btw.

A factor that may be relevant: This is a YOLO tourney for me, since I wasn't planning to rebuy.

We are starting the 5th LVL at 100\200, no antes.
It folds around to me in the SB with KJo and I mindlessly insta-shove.
I have no reads on the villain (who has me covered) as he has just sat down. I just think KJo seems good enough with 11BB.

He calls and turns over ATo, which I have 40% against. We both miss the board, and I am out asking "Why? Why??" like Conan O'brien. :dontknow:

I had a good conversation with Diamond Dixie (Lisa) on the team, and later with Carl Trooper and Ryan Laplante.

Lisa's take is that you're never folding KJo there because it's too good of a hand, and shoving is not horrible but you only get called when you're beat (as someone mentioned further above). Plus you only pick up 1.5BB from the move when it works (due to pre-ante). She thinks shoving makes more sense when there are antes and more of a reward for the risk of going bust with no intent to rebuy, and prefers a limp-stab move so you can get away from it if raised and take a stab at a favorable flop.

Ryan's thought was that the play was basically fine\standard without reads on the player in the big blind.

Carl, who I consider a master of patience when short-stacked (won the ME package when down to 6BB at one point), said that he would probably fold in that spot rather than play a marginal hand out of position, because you have several more hands to see in position after folding.

I think because of the no ante and no rebuy factors, I prefer the limp-stab or fold approach. Unfortunately, I panicked, which was something I had hoped to avoid, hence the thread-start.

Is this a level?

You have a very good hand, only one player to get through and 13% of our stake in dead money.....this is an ez shove unless there are extreme ICM considerations which there weren't at level 5.

If you want to raise to 5.5BB and shove any flop...whatever. I think A10 reshoves anyway pre.

 

[WiZZiM]

Not sure what all the discussion about, shoving here is totally fine.

However if this is a once in a lifetime tournament for you, then you can consider other moves which might not be ideal in terms of long term EV.

 

[terryg642]

I can tell you what you don't do ,don't try and slow play for value.You've got a big hand like AA or KK ALL the chips in the center .You don't want someone hitting a set on you when they have a pair,make them fold.

 

[EmmanuelM3]

20BB> Open ship/3bet ship no 2 ways about it. Look for good spots ship ay broadway/connectors against the blinds

 

[Himanshu]

1st thing if you are close to money and you can fold your way to cash then their is no harm in it i am in no way saying fold aces or kings or other premium starting hands.
Well if you are not close to money or if you don't care about small cash then you should go in with hands like 66 , AK and other good hands but do not call any raise with 15 BB if you think you are ahead go all in and let the raiser decide what he/she wants to do. With 15 BB i don't think their are many moves that you can do to make anyone fold any pair on the flop or any set of over pair so its best to go all in or fold. If you see someone stealing pots every other hand then just go all in whenever he/she raises they will generally wont call coz their hands are not that strong.

 

[kworm2013]

start to play aggressive with 10-15BB.

 

[skiptomyloot]

10-15bb. I find it easier to shove at times, or play shortstack. If its early on in a MTT and blinds are low.. You can easily shove more because its not as much as a risk. You can expect players to be loose on calling .especially big stacks. Also it saves time on just shoving when you got a good hand. I wouldn't just flat call a min raise if you got players behind, you wanna always get it heads up for a coin flip preflop. also, re raising out of position can give an advantage against 3 bets and possibly even get the original raiser to fold with others playing behind him. usually people tend to play the same way after they shove 10-15 bbs. I would try to avoid that as quick as possible because once you double up and the blindes antes are huge, you need to pick up the pace or else your more likely to get busted anyways. if its before the bubble, try to shove when you can against smaller or simliar stacks, and usually the big stack on the table that call with anything has advantage, so before when trying to steal for bbs.try practicing short stack sng. It really does help with pressure and analyzing on who to play against whether or not your hand is good or bad.

 

[CallandMucKplzzzzzzz]

10,15 BBS mtt near bubble ?

hey, i'm new in here 'cause i'm french and not really good on yur language.

i'll try in fact to explain my mind process or anything else to increase stack when we are on blinds against one open min-raiser before ( UTG or COFF or BU )
1st : look for who is the opener and look for how much he comes.

If he is 70 bbdeep or more u can hope he'll call a 50% win, and of course thinking about he won't bust at this time but u could be the buster to you ..
thinking that he thinks that you think that about it .. So as is can hope about it that he will probably open A10+ or 99+ here to call your 3bet shove in SB OR BB.
i hope u can understand me here

let me go on now:

2nd time i consider that his best open range ( except all bluff here of course )
is all Ax and 77+ ? are you ok with it ( remain he is 70, 80 BB's deep here )

so that's time to think about me :
67s is sexy and i know it
Time to shove or time to call ?

if i think he can fold is top range i'll probably push since 910s to all pocket pair for having best 50% win or win just by a fold of opener ?

considering that he will probably call cause he got a good hand vs me .
i dont think to be really clear here but i try to ..
so if iam really tired i can shove here with anything .. 45s, or broadways, or suited connectors and all pocket pair.

but i thought that this sort of thinking could probably been done if u got 10BB or less. Not really when u got 11or15BB
stack again u play is not as important as he got same stack of you.
In our case u could probably better call oop, to shove post flop 100% of time.
Say why ? Because u'll probably win if flop is not A+ or 3 of a kind for him that kills u on the moment .
But u can find a draw on that flop dont you ?

3rd time --- and 4th will be for you PLEASE

At this late time u can think about he think that if he open every hand to folder shove i will probably fold all his range except premiums of course.

So in here i can only call all i have .
All openers min raise my BB i call.
Defend blinds with 15BB is the best way to increase your stack versus all players.

The way to shove are just to be sure that u are always winner but thats not possible until river has come, AA is your horror against many hands 20% of time think so?

Really i think many times u defend 34off suited on BB u'll win the pot 80% time
as well as u go all in pre flop with AA ?
ok it's a joke but many times the players against u will fold and dont let him fold until he has given u a double up a this moment

come in on 30 BB is the best way to play better at bubble time.

excuse me about the bad explications. hope u'll understand ..

I'm waiting for ur answers :deal:

 

[CallandMucKplzzzzzzz]

Is this a level?

You have a very good hand, only one player to get through and 13% of our stake in dead money.....this is an ez shove unless there are extreme ICM considerations which there weren't at level 5.

If you want to raise to 5.5BB and shove any flop...whatever. I think A10 reshoves anyway pre.

what about ur range to shove and ur call range in here ?

explain me at 3000/6000 820 antes
ur stack is so : 90 000
his stack is about 230 000
u got A10+ 77+
and 2 time u got 22+ broadways/suiteconnectors included

shove or call shove any flop ?

 

[CallandMucKplzzzzzzz]

effective stack sizes nearly always matter, IMO.

Blindly folding, shoving, or limp/shoving your entire playable range just because you are below an arbitrary line in the sand of "15bb" is a very simplistic strategy.

Now, I'm not saying it's wrong to adopt a push/fold strategy at a certain stack size. And if you don't possess any more complex tactics in your arsenal, then it is a perfectly fine strategy as it is hard for your opponents to defend against.

But there are more complex, lower variance ways that a good player can play a 15bb stack WHEN it is roughly the average stack.

For instance, I play in a weekly $80 live crapshoot tourney. It usually gets about 12 tables and usually top 18 are paid. Once we get to 3 tables the average stack is about 12-15bb because the structure sucks.

By the time we get to 3 tables I usually have a lot of skill equity vs. the field and I usually have an average stack. I'm not going to give them the privilege of flipping against me since there are much easier ways for me to get chips. Contrary to popular belief, there is still some play left at a 15bb average stack.

Here are the moves I will consider using at a 15bb average stack depending on table factors:
1)min raise, fold to a 3bet.
2)min raise, jam on a 3bet
3)min raise, call a jam
4)limp AK early pos and call any jam, fold if I miss the flop and they bet into me (rare table dynamics needed here)
5)re-steal all in vs. a light opener (usually with at least a speculative hand like 57s at the worst)
6)open jam marginal hands like KQ, 77 vs. "sticky" blind defenders
7)defend blinds vs. a min raise, then jam any flop that misses their perceived range (stop n go)
8)defend blinds vs. a min raise, then check raise all in when I hit a piece of the flop and I think they didn't
9)flat a min raise in position with a monster hoping to induce a squeeze shove.
10)min raise pre with 2 big cards. Jam on almost any flop (double barrel shove)

So, just right there with what I can think of off the top of my head there are 10 moves beyond just fold/shove. Now, admittedly there is not much play left after a flop bet.

at least, that's my $0.02

Dont you thin u can defend every hands and do the job on any flop ? 2barrels shove or check raise all in many time hero against u will bet ?

sorry i'm french and excuse my strange way to explain

do you consider fold equity ?

Do u consider he think about u think that he was thinking that ?

Shove only Premiums to preserve set up on flop, no 77+ vs A10+/88+ ?

hope u understand my question

I only defend my BB when i'm 15BB near bubble time or middle tourney.
Premium included to get a better double up many time after the flop ?
risk taken to show 20% time a better hand versus me ...

What do u think about it ?
Many players open UTG on short stack 15BB on Big blind with hands like J7s or else so if i got 45s + i got fold equity and could win 50% time with any flop including Aces that i could just defend to shove if the opener cbet ...

sorry i'm really bad in english

 

[ribaric]

I must say when I have 10-15bb I use fold/shove. Cuz if you only call with for example KJ and your opponnent goes all in you have to call and thats 70% you will loose or fold thats like waisting your chips so for me the best play is fold/shove

 

[LizardDan]

Winning a few coin flips is crucial to placing in MTTs. That's why having 100 buy-ins minimum is so important .

 

[Bogdan Pyts]

If I have a short stack, the first thing need to evaluate your table. Very often, players with big stacks will be open too many hands, and I will be able to choose and pushing the situation to add to his stack to a significant amount of chips. Let's say you have 15-20 big blinds, and on the right sits a very aggressive player, opening a bunch of hands. In this case from late position, I should bet all-in with any pair, AT, KQ, KJ, etc. Against these players is an easy all-in, and if it kicked I increase the stack by 20-25% due to a raise, the blinds and antes.

I not to open when Y have less than 15 big blinds as a standard raise with a stack almost binds you to the nomination. I raise 2-2.5 BB, and someone behind I bet all-in. Pot odds amount of 1.5 to 1, and in this situation you can hardly find a lot of hands that will call with not a chance. Raises the stack is less than 15 big blinds and reraise to throw - just a bad game. But suppose me do to fold. So I have 12 big blinds and no more fold equity. If an aggressive player opens with hands like 9-8 suited or 10-9 and I push only 10 blinds above, your opponent will be tied to the bank. And these are the hands that he could throw. It may seem that 2-3 extra blind in the pot - it's not much, but they define the math to influence decisions on the opponent's call. In most situations, the short stack you want to see the ball.

The position is very important. Suppose that in your stack of 10 big blinds. If you have the first word, and you have 8 players in your range should include any pair (deuces close decision), AJ +, KQ +, T9s + and A8s. + Suited hands, too, affect the math. For example, KQo and K9s from the first position should be put all-in, and KTo - throw away. The smaller players behind you, the wider the range.

 

[PershingSt]

I believe there is a little wiggle room between 11-15 bb stacks to flat or just open raise, and maybe even raise fold certain situations. However below 11bbs you get to the point where your double up will not mean very much to accumulating a stack to win . So I believe we have to play shove or fold around 10bbs but above that there is a bit of room to play with . Remember the difference between unexploitable and optimal when looking at shove charts above 11 bbs imo .

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Dont you thin u can defend every hands and do the job on any flop ? 2barrels shove or check raise all in many time hero against u will bet ?

sorry i'm french and excuse my strange way to explain

do you consider fold equity ?

Do u consider he think about u think that he was thinking that ?

Shove only Premiums to preserve set up on flop, no 77+ vs A10+/88+ ?

hope u understand my question

I only defend my BB when i'm 15BB near bubble time or middle tourney.
Premium included to get a better double up many time after the flop ?
risk taken to show 20% time a better hand versus me ...

What do u think about it ?
Many players open UTG on short stack 15BB on Big blind with hands like J7s or else so if i got 45s + i got fold equity and could win 50% time with any flop including Aces that i could just defend to shove if the opener cbet ...

sorry i'm really bad in english

You could probably defend your BB with any 2 cards if you're an excellent player and your villain is opening too much and has a wide range. But I don't personally defend that wide. In my BB, facing a min raise from an active player I will flat with all my decent hands including unsuited connectors like 98o and suited 2 gappers like 69s.

But for this to be worth the trouble, I must have a line on their play. I must believe they have a wide range and Cbet too much. Then I can happily check/shove on all the flops that I hit, or where I flop a draw, or where I just believe the flop totally missed my opponent. Fighting for the pots is critical and valuable when you are in the range of 15bb and so picking up an extra 4-5bb with crappy cards adds a ton of value to your game. It also increases the odds you'll go broke because sometimes you'll jam into a better hand. 15bb poker is a risky game no matter how you play it.

I definitely consider Fold Equity. for instance if he usually Cbets half the pot and I call a min raise from my BB the pot will have about 6bb in it and he'll Cbet 3bb making the pot 9bb. If I check raise jam my remaining stack of just 13bb he'll need to call 10 to win 12 so he'll be getting about 1.2:1 pot odds on a call. those are not great odds and he should fold most draws and bottom pairs or underpairs. and of course he'll fold all his bluffs. But some guys just will never fold flush draws on the flop...you have to know that and adjust accordingly. But say he raised AJo and you flat in your BB with 89s and the flop comes QT4 rainbow with 1 of your suit. If you know he Cbets 100% of the time you can check raise jam your gutshot and he'll usually fold even though he's actually ahead and holds a blocker to your draw. You've now outplayed him post flop but if you had 3bet shoved preflop he would have called you and you'd be in bad shape.

 

[LizardDan]

I believe there is a little wiggle room between 11-15 bb stacks to flat or just open raise, and maybe even raise fold certain situations. However below 11bbs you get to the point where your double up will not mean very much to accumulating a stack to win . So I believe we have to play shove or fold around 10bbs but above that there is a bit of room to play with . Remember the difference between unexploitable and optimal when looking at shove charts above 11 bbs imo .

The issue with raising or calling at low bb stacks is that the flop will likely miss you and you can't bluff off your opponents. Shoving nullifies position, gives you a chance to steal blinds, and if you have a pair or an A or a K you're ahead of most MTT ranges.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

The issue with raising or calling at low bb stacks is that the flop will likely miss you and you can't bluff off your opponents. Shoving nullifies position, gives you a chance to steal blinds, and if you have a pair or an A or a K you're ahead of most MTT ranges.

I disagree with the portion that you say you can't bluff your opponents. The flop will likely miss us...yes. the flop will also likely miss him. So put yourself in the shoes of villain; don't you think if you missed the flop and Cbet are facing a pot sized raise you will fold? Obviously you have to know your opponents. some won't find a fold with a hand that they think is "good enoug to play for stacks" regardless of what the flop brings. Other players are extremely willing to flip preflop but will take a chill pill on the flop. these are great players to attempt to flat and outplay. Some players are very comfortable in their preflop push/fold game and a little shaky in their post flop game (methinks from reading too many forum posts that advocate robotic shove/fold poker in too many situations!) these are great players to flat against as well.

Now, don't get me wrong. MOST of the time when facing a raise with a 15bb stack your best options will be to fold or shove. but I think it is an error to oversimplify the game to the point that you truly believe those are your ONLY options.

15BB is the same as 20BB

almost. You definitely have more wiggle room to flat a raise with 20bb. depending on the player that could be extremely iffy with 15bb. either stack size the hand ends on the flop....but the size of the flop bets and flop jams and remaining stacks if you fold on the flop are different enough that there is a distinction.

 

[matiusaa]

Well almost never, I would do it with AA if I think the raiser is going to fold to a push, but then you have to play push or fold, because you can'afford to put 2bb and fold most of the flops, you are losing more than 10% of your stack, if you push and the raiser folds, you usually win 6bb uncontestedly, which represents like 40% of your stack or more, you have 40% chip up WITHOUT SHOWDOWN=no variance. But the range depends a lot on positions and opponents

 

[Vadim Kudimov]

I do not know, but as a rule I do when I get to the final table, certainly in the early stages of a strong pullback (there is 2-3BB). then I sit and wait for top pair. I often wait for them and begins the ascent. how it seems to me that this rule 10-15BB no more than a statistical rule. which by and large a difference having 10BB play rubbish and lose, or wait for an opportunity.

 

[Olgert1992]

15 it is possible to do reise. If 10 to wait that good map for push.

 

[legudus]

take a look in this article:
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/sng/2076/1/

It addresses several different issues. There is not only the strategy fold / shove . Mini raising works well in certain situations. And sometimes you going to losing some blind however get a final position slightly above

 

[Karozi615]

Honestly, in a game where there is a lot of black and white this is one of the gray areas. I mean, a 10 BB stack is relatively easy to play IMO. However, the 13-20 BB stack is really annoying because your always going to be really confused about your opening range and whether or not you should be shoving or flatting, etc. The classic "What do I do with 88 UTG+1 with 17.4 BB's at an 8 handed table".

For as loose and aggressive as a cash player as I have always been, I recommend just trying to play extremely tight in MTT play in these spots and trying to play a preflop oriented game. So if someone opens for 3x in an ante tournament I really do not see why you can't reshove 20 BB's. A lot of pros would call that suboptimal but IMO it's absolutely fine in live play - considering the quality of opponents tends to be super bad.

Overall, just use your discretion and lean towards the side of caution.

 

[bitowl]

So how does one play a 10-15bb stack vs a mp open? I know on the bubble you're supposed to play super tight but just had this happen to me a few hours ago in a rebuy tournament many levels away from the bubble.

I'm 12bb stack in cutoff with AJo. Most of the players left to act around 20-30bbs.

MP minraises (aggressive player, opens relatively wide)

I shove.

Is this too aggressive? I always used to just flat call until I was below 10bbs but I'm not convinced its actually a profitable call. You go broke vs AQ+ anyway on Axx & if you try to steal unsuccessfully you'll probably only have like 7bbs left and now your shoves to steal the blinds have lost a big chunk of their fold equity.

6max cash was always my game so I'm entirely lost below 40bbs. It feels like I fold until I have ~10bbs and then jam and get called ridiculously wide and lose. I'm just trying to tease out if thats just how tournament poker goes or if I'm making fundamental mistakes.

 

[Playtext]

For me ace jack + = shove.

 

[PokerFunKid]

It depends on the players at your table. Asuming you know push/fold chart (if not i highly recommend you to learn it) its a nice basic, but you have to adjust to your opponets. If they are total nits i often just minraise and lay down hands i normaly wouldn't. Also playing a 10BB stack is totally different then playing a 15bb stack so there is no simple answer. With a 10bb stack you will have to shove very light (how light depends on opponents) and with a 15bb stack you can't shove as light obviously. When you're at a table full of regs i'd rather openshove 15 bigs with AK then just minraise, unless you think you can induce a 3bet because they are agro, but have to keep in mind you will miss the flop often and you need a plan vs each opponent what you do in each situation. So theres a lot to look at with a 10bb-15bb besides just the pushfold chart. You have to adjust your shortstack strategy to your opponents at your table.

Then you also have a different play in sattelites, in a 4-max, 6-max and 9-max and the structure of a tournament. The less people at the table, the wider you should shove, because you will hit the blinds more often and have to shove very wide to prevent getting blinded out.