Here's a situation for you all to think about...

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chicubs1616

Guest
You are near the bubble in a tournament...let's say a $5 MTT with 1100 entrants. 99 Places pay out and 110 are left.

The average stack at this point is around 15K. You have 25K and are in the BB.

The blinds are 600/1200 with an ante of 75.

The action is folded around to a short stack in middle position who raises all-in for 4000 total.

Everyone folds around to you.

You look down and see 64 offsuit. What do you do and why?

I already know what my actions would be in this hand, I am just curious what other posters would do here...
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
I'd Fold. I know you'll say you should call as pot odds would justify a call with any hand and opponent could make that move with absolutely anything, but personally i would let this one go and invest the saved 2,800 elsewhere. I think i'm a looser player than average especially late on, so I'm curious as well to see what other say. Little bit better cards i'd definately call but not with 4 6.
 
t1riel

t1riel

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It's almost a no brainer that you would fold. You would only get 4k out of it and chances are, the other player has two over cards. If you fold, the player will only get 1800 which will be gone once the blinds get to the player. It's not worth it.
 
tenbob

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Ive made calls like this in the past, but really calls like this are of no avail, you are an underdog in the hand simple as that. These are the moments in a tourney that count, if I had a face card it might be something to think about.

So you call, double him through giving him a decent stack to play with, will this be the guy to bust you out at the final table ? He is on the bubble with enough chips for another 2 orbits, and the likeyhood of making the money himself. I would put the guy on a very good hand, at least an overpair to our measly 64.

No this time I fold, and wait to pick my spot, Ive been very guilty of letting my hard earned chip stack get decimated very quickly on plays like this. But thats not to say its a bad call either, each to their own.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
t1riel said:
It's almost a no brainer that you would fold. You would only get 4k out of it and chances are, the other player has two over cards. If you fold, the player will only get 1800 which will be gone once the blinds get to the player. It's not worth it.
2550 - include 10 lots of 75 antes
 
Tammy

Tammy

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t1riel said:
It's almost a no brainer that you would fold. You would only get 4k out of it and chances are, the other player has two over cards. If you fold, the player will only get 1800 which will be gone once the blinds get to the player. It's not worth it.
I have to agree. Better to let him steal the blinds than to double him up and have him sticking around. Would be a little bit tempting, however, but yeah, no, I'd fold. :D
 
lightning36

lightning36

Visionary
You have to fold here. I would guess that the short stack had A-something, two face cards, or a pair. Hard to see taking the gamble with 6-4 os. Now ... if you had some live cards you might take the chance. But if you lose, outside of letting your competitor double up and become a possible threat to you, you lower your stack to 21,000. A blind or two later, and you start feeling the heat. Much better to save that 4,000 for pushing an excellent hand.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
OK, here are some of my responses to your comments (I'm glad I can spark a good debate.)

Hard to see taking the gamble with 6-4 os. Now ... if you had some live cards you might take the chance.
If you hold 64 off, almost every time these cards will be live. The only situation where you might not have live cards is if your opponent has A4, A6, 66, or 44.

Ok, if you want to win a tournament, you have to accumulate chips however you can get them. If you make this call here, 98% of the time you are an underdog (unless of course he has 22 or 33). However, just because you are an underdog DOES NOT mean you should fold. Let me explain this topic that seems to puzzle almost everyone on this board.


If you win this pot your stack will be over 30K. If you lose, it will be at 20,925, still significantly above the average stack.

When it is folded around to you, the pot is 6475 (BB+SB+9 antes+ his 4000 chips), it is 2800 for you to call.

You are getting 2.31:1 odds to call here (6475 in pot / 2800 to call).

Even if your opponent has AK, you are only a 1.9:1 underdog (~35% to win).

You are getting the correct odds to call here. It is situations like these that too many players pass up. If your arguement is that you can save your chips for later you are missing the point. You are actually losing yourself potential chips here by folding. If you fold your stack is down to 23,750. Lets say the next hand you go all-in and double up. You only double to ~49K (with blinds). If you call and win the pot with 64off before hand you would double to around 61K. This is a BIG difference (12K, which is HUGE at this point in the tournament). It seems like no one else here understands the importance of putting your chips into the pot when you are getting the correct odds to do so in a crucial stage of the tournament. Calling in spots like this is what can seperate you from someone who every once in a while squeaks into the money, or someone who goes deep into many tournaments.

By folding here you are passing up a chance to accumulate more chips without taking a big hit to your stack.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
I understand the argument re pot odds (I said I knew what your answer would be), but I wouldn't exactly be jumping through hoops of fire to take 2.3/1 odds for 1.9/1 chance, not in this situation. There is also chance (admittedly small) that opponent already has pair.

Second part of your argument contradicts first part. You said that if you lose initial bet (which is more likely than not) then your stack will reduce to 20,925 - doubling this only makes 41.5K - 20K less than 61K! As an alternative argument say you lost bet, then were broke down again to say 6,000 chips - you'd be wishing you had kept the 2,800 you "threw" away. I still think I would fold here.
 
tenbob

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chicubs1616 said:
Even if your opponent has AK, you are only a 1.9:1 underdog (~35% to win).
Good point probably the ideal to be facing here are high connectors, and as far as your concerned it can be 87 or AK, but i re-iterate my point from my earlier post, why risk it here without a made hand (ie pocket pair), when this guy has a good chance of making the money without making any moves.

When do you stop calling hands that your an underdog in ? 64o are rags and should be thrown where they belong. And I have gone deep into MTT's several times, and made big money once. But i feel the way to play is to wait until you have favourable chances and better hands, id much prefer to go up against a big stack holding AK than visa versa holding garbage like 64o

Thats just my take on the issue, and its not to say that your wrong chichiubs
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
When do you stop calling hands that your an underdog in ?
If it is going to cripple your stack...this is not that type of situation.

id much prefer to go up against a big stack holding AK than visa versa holding garbage like 64o
So would I...but you are NOT going up against a big stack here...it is against a tiny stack (< 4BB). His range of hands is obviosuly going to include pocket pairs but also an ace and hands like K-8, Q-9, J-10 and up... The call isn't going to cripple you and you are getting favorable odds to call here.

this guy has a good chance of making the money without making any moves.
Actually, he doesn't... at the very best in his current situation, if he makes NO moves he MIGHT get lucky and squeak into the first payout (money back + a few dollars). He needs to double up or he will be severely crippled and will need a couple miracles to even cash...
 
lightning36

lightning36

Visionary
chicubs1616 - Meet ya at Cowboy Monkey to discuss further? Bring your cards and chips. I want to go up against your 6-4 os. lol
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Fold and let him have the BB this time around. You are allready doing better than the avg stack. Fight again on another hand.. 3X the BB Bet with the hopes of getting lucky to take him out with suited cards just won't work. They aren't even suited connectors wich may then warrent the call.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
They aren't even suited connectors wich may then warrent the call.
If you are going to call with 64 suited here, why not with 64 offsuit??? If the cards are suited or not doesn't change the odds that much where it would be incorrect for you to call either way...
 
tenbob

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Just a point on tiny stack play, I was big stack at a table on the bubble a few weeks ago, 1450 players, nearly the same situation.

The guys managed 65th place from delaying play, taking his time and being a general ass, but he managed it.

I have to disagree with you on this one, i will NEVER call an all in with 64o unless its heads up and he has to go all in on a blind, so that the end of my opnions on this post.

Good craic though, slainte mo chara
 
tenbob

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TENBOB vs CHICUBS

I ALWAYS WIN WTIH [sic] 63o!", proclaimed at approximately 10:53 EST exclaimed Chicubs1616 following a hand played on pokerstars.com in which unimproved Chicubs1616 63o lost on the river to a flush held by another player. "DID U SEE HIM CALAL [sic] WIHT [sic] THAT CRAP?! I **** HATE SIXTHREE. 63o IS A ***** TERBIBLE [sic] HAND"

Apparently frustrated by the site's automatic obscenity filter which prevented other players from seeing his curses in chat, Chicubs1616 proceded to experiment with spelling and spacing variations for the following four minutes, including "PHUCKING SIX THREE ", "F_UK SIX", "THREE FKUKING BLAWS." Regardless of the form, the messages all served to drive home Chicubs1616’s controversial thesis: SIX THREE in the hole is a great hand.

News of shocking cChicubs1616’s conclusion regarding the relative quality of 63o spread quickly throughout the poker world. RGP lit up with a record number of posts, including dazed, almost apologetic commentary from some of poker's top scholars, including luminaries such as author David Sklansky.

"I don't know what to say," read an excerpt from Sklansky's post. "I mean, I've been playing for quite awhile, and when I write a book, I do a good amount of research, lots of statistical analysis, all that stuff. I was pretty darn sure AA was a good hand, the best hand in fact... but after hearing comments Chicubs1616 ... I just want to say I'm sorry for misleading everyone. I just ... I didn't know."

At press time, various poker authors were feverishly working to revise all of their texts containing now-erroneous assertions regarding the quality of AA. Industry sources report that Tom McEvoy has already started work on a book co-authored with, Chicubs1616 tentatively titled "Championship Poker the Chicubs1616 way :" SIX THREE PLAYS FOR ADVANCED PLAYERS"

Chicubs1616
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
Hahaha...very funny, I'm glad that you think enough of me to write a flame post...

Now, if you would like to put your money where your mouth is, I would gladly play you in a heads-up match...that is if you have a bankroll, or if you are even old enough to legally play on a poker site...
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
tenbob said:
I have to disagree with you on this one, i will NEVER call an all in with 64o unless its heads up and he has to go all in on a blind, so that the end of my opnions on this post.
You're in BB which is 2000, Button has 2003 chips and pushes, SB folds. You immediately feel stupid for saying you'd never call a push with 64o unless someone was forced all in. Your "humorous" post was all well and good except for the facts that (a) it's 64o, and (b) you obviously have no clue about tournament strategy if you think the decision is so clear cut you can go around writing up joke posts about it. Oh, and (c) that's so obviously copy/pasted from somewhere with bits altered.

Re. the original question, it's right on the borderline. If my stack is any shorter or it's costing me any more to call, I fold. If I have a bigger stack or the push is for less, I probably call. I don't think you're giving up/gaining much whichever option you choose. I probably lean towards a call here more in the hope that there's someone who's silly enough still hanging around to give me more action because I'm "that guy who called a push with 64o" than the fact that I think it's mathematically the best move.
 
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chicubs1616

Guest
THANK YOU Dorkus...

Finally there is someone with some intelligent thoughts and reasoning. You need to be able to back up what you are saying...and you did that. Great reply Dorkus!
 
Crippler450

Crippler450

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Despite what Tenbob says, its not always about having the better hand. If you have a 33% chance of winning a hand where it only costs a few more chips to put him all in, and you are getting pot odds, you should almost ALWAYS call. You cant always have AK in this situation, and if you wait until you get a monster hand, you will probably be almost out of chips before you see it.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
Tenbob, I don't understand your flame post - Chicubs was referring to 6 4 os, but you were talking about 6 3 os - this is a totally different situation!

I think Chicubs was quite clear with why he thinks you should call with 6 4 os IN THE PARTICULAR SITUATION. He wasn't extolling the virtues of calling all in with rubbish - Chicubs is one of the most knowledgable posters on site, and if you read his previous posts you would know this, so there's no reason to mock him. Maybe you're following the example of certain other posters on site who feel the need to mock their "intellectual inferiors"?

I didn't agree with Chicubs either, but that's the whole point of discussion pieces like this. If you know how other people will act in a certain situation, that's valuable knowledge which you can use to adjust your game accordingly.
 
tenbob

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It was a joke guys, supposed to be a laugh, and I had a few beers on me when i wrote it, yes it was supposed to be 64o, but i was a joke...

Well i find it funny anyway. But on a more serious note, i really enjoy debate like this, its what this site has been sadly lacking for the past few months
 
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