the habit of shoving once i hit the flop

ninjareal

ninjareal

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Hi all, I have noticed a habit of mine developing, not a good one i feel,
Calling preflop with whatever if it connects top pair on the flop i almost always shove in the later levels (no matter what kicker i have) ,
Does anyone else do this or similar? And what do you guys think of this "habit" ?
Saying that though, there are a few spots where i have lost by not "flop shoving " as opponent would have never called on the flop and got me when we saw the river , (hope I'm making sense ? Lol )
 
gedzshadow

gedzshadow

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So you are pushing all in with top pair and crappy kickers?? Yeah..thats not a good habit.

Its why you shouldn't call with crappy hands because the flop then makes your hand look good when it probably isnt.
 
dbchristy

dbchristy

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its a leak in my game, that i plugged a few weeks ago, and am starting to see more profit. If villian is on draw, he more than likely will call ALL IN especially in a rebuy to get a stack. happens all too often. best to raise and see what they are after..lol
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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So you are pushing all in with top pair and crappy kickers?? Yeah..thats not a good habit.

Its why you shouldn't call with crappy hands because the flop then makes your hand look good when it probably isnt.
Yes you're right, say i have A8 and flop is 287 , i shove and fear what? Thats always my line of thinking especially later levels, if they have any AK/AQ hand i have them I'm sure, so just afraid of pocket 99 and above, in later levels people with 99 for example usually bet a bit different (more aggressive /all in preflop) and mostly this "habit" works for me, i just can't help cringing every time I catch myself doing this , just feels "cheap" ,
In place of A8 you can also consider 98,Q8,T8 etc, reasonably bad kickers besides A8, but results are basically the same
 
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Roger1960

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I have noticed more and more that players will do that in the beginning too. Later stages depending on stack size makes sense to do it if low on chips. A lot of people wait for their AA, but their stack is so small that the BB and at times the SB will all but have to call their all ins being that it is almost the BB or just a little bit over.
I also notice that people will get mad when you want to see the turn and river, they are a part of the game. lol
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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its a leak in my game, that i plugged a few weeks ago, and am starting to see more profit. If villian is on draw, he more than likely will call ALL IN especially in a rebuy to get a stack. happens all too often. best to raise and see what they are after..lol
Yes , I sometimes do that, i should add that usually later levels when this happens, i feel it's almost "impatience" from my side, "fear" perhaps? "Desperation " at times, , i feel it's a lazy way to play poker as well, just hope i don't get into those positions often, big stack leading the tourney os always easier :)
How did you plug the leak? And don't you fear giving rival chances to win ?
What was happening before you fixed the leak ?
I guess this "habit" started by trying to protect my good hands in these freeroll shoots, and now has transformed into "i don't have premium hand but this medium hand i got in cheap will nake people pay hard to see anymore than the flop"
 
dbchristy

dbchristy

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Yes , I sometimes do that, i should add that usually later levels when this happens, i feel it's almost "impatience" from my side, "fear" perhaps? "Desperation " at times, , i feel it's a lazy way to play poker as well, just hope i don't get into those positions often, big stack leading the tourney os always easier :)
How did you plug the leak? And don't you fear giving rival chances to win ?
What was happening before you fixed the leak ?
I guess this "habit" started by trying to protect my good hands in these freeroll shoots, and now has transformed into "i don't have premium hand but this medium hand i got in cheap will nake people pay hard to see anymore than the flop"
yes, I think a certain amount of fear is healthy. shows youre paying attention. (and Im speaking for my own game) its so easy for me to get distracted watching tv..ect you always need to anticipate your villans next move. and think what does he have, what does he think I have, ect. and yes, someone else betting before me, has many times, saved the life of my game. really emphasizes the importance of position, over the strength of your cards. :five:
 
MikeCarasone

MikeCarasone

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I’d encourage you to bet your top pair instead of shoving. This will increase the value you get in having top pair. If you are shoving with any kicker then that’s gonna be on you to adjust your preflop calling range. It’s good to bet top pair but your limiting your potential win/profit by pushing all in. You want to extract as much value as possible. Chasing players away isn’t going to net as much as you should be getting. Players on a draw are going to call you anyhow so worrying about the suckout can’t influence your line.
 
xbronk

xbronk

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if it makes sense although usually if someone calls is because you already have the preflop pair I do not say it is bad but up when connecting you can run to those who can win you in the following streets:tomato::playingba
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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I also notice that people will get mad when you want to see the turn and river, they are a part of the game. lol
Haha I don't know, is that a "calling station" idea ? I don't mind those and would never get mad, lol .
I haven't felt the need early levels, and when it happens at later levels close to the bubble even, a lot of players simply fold if they have nothing on the flop, and those "stubborn" ones with AK/Ax etc usually lose and i chip up,
Aside from the practicalities, it also seems a physiological image is portrayed , and makes other players tighten up even more (waiting to "revenge" hahaha ) , when I'm in desperation mode/willing to fight mode, i don't mind this phsyc effect this seems to have, I'm hoping to explore the experiences of other players who do/have done/seen this "habit ", it feels not serious enough poker, but who knows, in those later levels is all poker for the bottom 30% reduced in seriousness? ?
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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I’d encourage you to bet your top pair instead of shoving. This will increase the value you get in having top pair. If you are shoving with any kicker then that’s gonna be on you to adjust your preflop calling range. It’s good to bet top pair but your limiting your potential win/profit by pushing all in. You want to extract as much value as possible. Chasing players away isn’t going to net as much as you should be getting. Players on a draw are going to call you anyhow so worrying about the suckout can’t influence your line.
Hi, I hear you, but most times my hand can't stand up to and a,k,q which may come on the turn or river, and just those huge blinds etc (roughly what 4k or something ) I'm quite happy to have with all folds , i have noticed at some of those times, other players will all be 10,15,20,30bb only , a lot of them all one 1 table, i guess everyone being stubborn(pronounced "patient") and trying to find spots.... and those blinds and antes mean so so much :p ,
i prefer never being in that position, but i have cashed once by being in the last day 10% on the leader board for like 2 hours .... it's so hard always fighting from the bottom, my gut though was sorta telling me that if i was being "fair" and allow opponents to see the turn & river .. i would have lost, of course this was just a feeling , not fact
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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I think you have a very strong reptilian brain. You have that caveman mindset. Because it was very hard to find food for them, once they find something they fight to death to keep it. That's why you are willing to risk your tournament life for pair of 8s, because for our ancestors during ice age even pair of 8s with crappy kicker was something hard to come bye. Typically players with developed reptilian brains also call down with gutshots, call with 3rd pairs on Ace high boards, donk pot when they hit nuts or block-bet 1bb with weak value hand.
 
K

kgilbz

Rising Star
The fact you made a thread asking us what we think about this habit already tells me you know its bad play.

It's just bad play man.
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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I think you have a very strong reptilian brain. You have that caveman mindset. Because it was very hard to find food for them, once they find something they fight to death to keep it. That's why you are willing to risk your tournament life for pair of 8s, because for our ancestors during ice age even pair of 8s with crappy kicker was something hard to come bye. Typically players with developed reptilian brains also call down with gutshots, call with 3rd pairs on Ace high boards, donk pot when they hit nuts or block-bet 1bb with weak value hand.
Kkkkkkk :p; ) , maybe hey, you never know, I have been known to be stubborn ( pronounced " patient " ), good times
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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The fact you made a thread asking us what we think about this habit already tells me you know its bad play.

It's just bad play man.


Hi, true , very true .... but all those chips out there , it's hard balancing what you should do vs what's the here and now,
I mean i think about it, say Q9 on 925 flop i have 12k there's say 9k in the pot, ii say 40% pot that's a lot of my stack already risked (left with say 8k) almost forces a call on the river by my opponent no matter what they have yes? And if a big card peels off on the turn , then what? Fold ? I think I've seen players let rivals get there on turn or river and then still shove even though they surely know they're now behind ? The just priced their short stack in too much ? It's never easy .... like I say i know what should be "right" , but faced with choices in the moment, seems shove "solves" problems, i have lost a few times doing this, but not so much, conversely however, when I'm the big stack i love players who do this because i know when i "have them" they can't escape, poker is funny
 
TeUnit

TeUnit

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To quote Johnny Cash, you need to drop that habit "like a hot horseshoe".
 
kowrip

kowrip

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You have to ask yourself what hands are going to call your all-in. Shoving immediately on the flop feels like you have a semi-strong or drawing hand and want everybody to fold. If you flopped 2 pair or a set, you wouldn't want to be pushing out the other players. So, it's more likely that you are going to be beat by an over pair / 2 pair / set when you are called. As a previous poster said, bet your top pair normally. You get more value. If you are called, you can either shut it down or fire a second barrel on the turn for much less risk than your entire stack.
 
gedzshadow

gedzshadow

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Pushing all in with top pair and an A kicker is much different than top pair and a non face card kicker. Variation in your game is important. Not doing the same thing each time the situation comes up and reading what works when is a big part too.

If you hit top pair, there is always a chance someone flops a set. Thats really hard to get away from unless the set goes all in before you even get to play.
 
Gamebreakr25

Gamebreakr25

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Hi all, I have noticed a habit of mine developing, not a good one i feel,
Calling preflop with whatever if it connects top pair on the flop i almost always shove in the later levels (no matter what kicker i have) ,
Does anyone else do this or similar? And what do you guys think of this "habit" ?
Saying that though, there are a few spots where i have lost by not "flop shoving " as opponent would have never called on the flop and got me when we saw the river , (hope I'm making sense ? Lol )
Hi Ninja. One problem with getting aggressive like that often on the flop is that you become predictable. Most times in poker you don't have that good of a hand every time that would merit shoving every time you see a flop. So you will most likely end up running into a bigger hand. Also, sense you aren't making it to the turn and rivers very often, you aren't giving yourself a chance to change up your bet sizes and try to get value from worse hands on those streets. If you have position, you want to see how the hand develops alot of times, so you can take advantage of your opponents sense they have to act first. I wish you the best, and take care
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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Hi Ninja. One problem with getting aggressive like that often on the flop is that you become predictable. Most times in poker you don't have that good of a hand every time that would merit shoving every time you see a flop. So you will most likely end up running into a bigger hand. Also, sense you aren't making it to the turn and rivers very often, you aren't giving yourself a chance to change up your bet sizes and try to get value from worse hands on those streets. If you have position, you want to see how the hand develops alot of times, so you can take advantage of your opponents sense they have to act first. I wish you the best, and take care
Hi gamebreak, yeah I hear you, it needs a fair amount of "bravery " for sure,
it sorta happened yesterday at the jackpot 80k, i had pocket 66 (i semi hate these small pairs close to the bubble very high blinds) , i had 7000 chips, blinds are 300/600 , so 1200 or so every time blinds pass by, easily a preflop shove in some spots yes?
Anyway I limp and villian 1 min raise to 1,2k get another villan 2 and myself to the flop (can't remember exactly ) comes 889 , action to me, so question what to do ? There's like 6k in the pot and I have 4,8k or something, if i min raise basically committing suicide if they shove or they call and a higher card falls on turn and river , or do we just check check fold? With so many chips in the pot ? Hahaha ..... so guess what i did , ?
Flop of 889 , i shove , get called by both villians 1st villan has KQ & other has (i don't know ) A4 perhaps? Comes blank blank turn and river and i win 28k ......
how would someone play it differently?
Considering that any of those villans most probably shove on turn or river putting me to the test, and the i fold?
So hard sometimes. ..... of course someone easily has an 8 or 9 on the flop and i "run into jaws of death" smiling ... lol
 
T

Travy100

Rising Star
Hi gamebreak, yeah I hear you, it needs a fair amount of "bravery " for sure,
it sorta happened yesterday at the jackpot 80k, i had pocket 66 (i semi hate these small pairs close to the bubble very high blinds) , i had 7000 chips, blinds are 300/600 , so 1200 or so every time blinds pass by, easily a preflop shove in some spots yes?
Anyway I limp and villian 1 min raise to 1,2k get another villan 2 and myself to the flop (can't remember exactly ) comes 889 , action to me, so question what to do ? There's like 6k in the pot and I have 4,8k or something, if i min raise basically committing suicide if they shove or they call and a higher card falls on turn and river , or do we just check check fold? With so many chips in the pot ? Hahaha ..... so guess what i did , ?
Flop of 889 , i shove , get called by both villians 1st villan has KQ & other has (i don't know ) A4 perhaps? Comes blank blank turn and river and i win 28k ......
how would someone play it differently?
Considering that any of those villans most probably shove on turn or river putting me to the test, and the i fold?
So hard sometimes. ..... of course someone easily has an 8 or 9 on the flop and i "run into jaws of death" smiling ... lol
I like that play & I would do the same. The pot is more than your current stack. You have a pair and with 8,8,9 there is a good chance neither two villians hit a pair. Still not a sure thing but not much is in poker as is the best play here.
Nearly a guaranteed loss to check it to a push all in decision.
 
ninjareal

ninjareal

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The other options are fold the 66 preflop or shove preflop (i don't like flipping, well preflop) it seems I'm semi-happy flipping on the flop, simply folding the 66 preflop might be an option (only cry if another comes on the flop) ah the joys
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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@ninjareal, in your 66 hand, folding preflop is not an option. Calling too is not option, your only good option was too shove preflop. What you do postflop was not that important, because you yourself put yourself in that terrible spot.
 
Z

Zikasamaster

Rock Star
Hi all, I have noticed a habit of mine developing, not a good one i feel,
Calling preflop with whatever if it connects top pair on the flop i almost always shove in the later levels (no matter what kicker i have) ,
Does anyone else do this or similar? And what do you guys think of this "habit" ?
Saying that though, there are a few spots where i have lost by not "flop shoving " as opponent would have never called on the flop and got me when we saw the river , (hope I'm making sense ? Lol )
Its a bad habbit,depends from tournament,from players on you table,your image on table,so some times you must shove top pair some time just check call or 3bet ,you must continuo to learning poker and start to watch some you tubers maybe you find some similar hands and you may learn how to play specific hands in similar situation....good luck
 
Z

Zikasamaster

Rock Star
Hi all, I have noticed a habit of mine developing, not a good one i feel,
Calling preflop with whatever if it connects top pair on the flop i almost always shove in the later levels (no matter what kicker i have) ,
Does anyone else do this or similar? And what do you guys think of this "habit" ?
Saying that though, there are a few spots where i have lost by not "flop shoving " as opponent would have never called on the flop and got me when we saw the river , (hope I'm making sense ? Lol )
Its a bad habbit,depends from tournament,from players on you table,your image on table,so some times you must shove top pair some time just check call or 3bet ,you must continue to learning poker and start to watch some you tubers maybe you find some similar hands and you may learn how to play specific hands in similar situation....good luck
 
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