Folding pocket aces

M

mellow123

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Total posts
32
Awards
4
I read a short paragraph in SS2 written by Phil Helmuth where he wrote about having a month-long discussion with Mike Matusow about decision to fold pocket aces if someone else went all-in, forcing you to call with all of your stack. He went on to say that he “ finally threw it away” without describing the particular event or situation.

I’ve always thought of pocket aces as a rapid auto-call if some shoved before me, period. But after reading that, I considered what occasions I might need to change that way if thinking.

One scenario that came to mind, and I may have already done it without remembering it, is if we’re at the bubble in a type of tournament where a certain amount of surviving players all win the same prize, such as double-or-nothing, survival, or satellite entry to a higher tournament - I have a large stack and 1 or two other players ( not in the hand) are 1x -3xBB

But I’m pondering other scenarios.

Thoughts, anyone?
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
11,144
Awards
1
The bubble of a satellite or DoN is the only realistic situation, where it can be correct to fold AA preflop. On a final table it could in theory be correct, if other players are already at risk, and we have an extremely small stack. For fun I played around with ICMizer a bit, and to make the program want to fold AA, I had to make it 5 players left on the final table, HJ all-in for 14BB, CO all-in for 30BB, Hero on BTN with 0,1BB after paying the ante, and the players in the blinds sitting with 30BB.

In this situation ICMizer folds AA, because it has more value banking on HJ going broke, so we level up one place. But this is so extreme, it just does not happen. If Hero has even 1BB left, or I change it to 7 players at the table, ICMizer has Hero calling AA. Maybe AA could be a fold, if multible players were at risk, because 3 or more have moved all-in. ICMizer cant analyse this, but when was the last time you saw this, AND you were sitting on a very short stack? It just does not happen, because anyone with just a minimal clue dont want to go broke before a short stack.
 
M

Mahdi

Rock Star
Joined
Jul 7, 2020
Total posts
412
Only ICM matters with AA, if you have to get a ladder no matter what and this is possible by folding AA then it worth it, otherwise and don't see any reason to do it
 
L

LFC_yllnwa

Legend
Joined
Jan 31, 2017
Total posts
1,500
Awards
8
It is not possible to throw AA on the preflop... There is only one situation where you are on a bubble and receive all in from a player whose pot is bigger than yours, BUT there are players who have a very short pot.. In any other situation, it is necessary to watch the flop or play with this card.. It's very simple..

On the flop, if there are 3 cards of the same suit and your aces do not fall into this suit, folding is also not a bad decision :)

If you think that you can lose, of course, but this happens with any card and in any situation, so do not think much about the power of this card, you need to assess the situation at the table and what you can expect in a particular tournament :)
 
Datdude1

Datdude1

Visionary
Joined
Feb 4, 2018
Total posts
947
For me that is a fold that I will not make. The only exception may be if I am in a tournament where that decision is the difference between cashing and being the bubble, but even then it would be extremely difficult for me to do.
 
B

B1BOMBER

Legend
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Total posts
1,134
Awards
2
Online I tend to dump my A A more often than I do live but I probably do it more than I should. I tend to dump them if 3 or more go all in. I am not a big fan of A A to begin with and with 3 or more all-ins I feel the odds of 1 of them catching a better hand is not worth risking my chips unless I have a mountain in front of me. In our local home game I lose more than I win with A A also. My favorite hand is 3 5 and I bust A A quite often with that. They don't bother tell me I don't belong in the pot calling with 3 5 because they know I.m going to call with it.:D:D
 
mina271

mina271

Legend
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Total posts
1,359
Awards
3
DE
I also find it very difficult to fold AA preflop. But sometimes I do this when, for example, I'm close to the money or when I'm on a satellite and have enough stacks to get the ticket. But if I'm in an all or nothing situation, I'm more likely to call. But it just depends on the situation. I'm usually more of a call because you don't have a better preflop, even if that doesn't mean you're sure to win. There is no hand preflop that is so certain that you will only win. Only when the river has fallen. Then you know whether you won or not
 
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Total posts
2,678
Awards
4
More players in the hand also justify giving up with AA because pocket Aces is still only one pair. Also, coordinated boards aren't so good for AA due to the potential for Flushes or Straights.

Here is one situation I was thinking about. It happened in one of the cardschat freerolls less than a week ago.

I don't want to get into the details of the hand, but I had AA versus one reg on a board of J98.

They put in an All-in on the Flop and I ended up calling it off quickly. I'm not thrilled with AA, but I was putting my opponent on overplaying Top Pair.

My Aces get cracked by 98o and I bust. I wasn't really that upset at Aces getting cracked because it happens, but you know what? I think I might have been able to get away from this hand and fold!

Against a fish, I'm probably still snap calling, but against a good player who just shoved All-in for roughly 80 bbs, I might consider realizing even AA is no good. Here are some reasons I might have talked myself into folding and not thinking of myself as too nitty:

- The board is pretty coordinated and this makes a high pair less attractive. Even if AA is still ahead, then it can still get outdrawn and there are always 2 pair or sets etc which are already ahead.

- My single opponent I consider a regular. If they shove this deep, they probably "have it" and that means something that beats pocket Aces on this board.

- In hindsight, I also think blockers should have been a larger factor in my decision making process. I felt my opponent was overplaying Top Pair, but I block any Ace with my pocket pair, so it is less likely Villain has AJ. Maybe someone is overplaying Top Pair with an Ace kicker, but is my reg opponent shoving here with KJ or QJ? I don't think so. I think I was overestimating my hand.

I'm not thrilled with ever folding AA, but if there was ever a time to fold them versus a single opponent, then this might have been the time.

Many examples are in multiway pots and even more so out of position, but this case was one opponent where I was in position if I recall correctly. Next time, I very well might be able to get away from this hand and fold here!
 
M

MakTrue

Visionary
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Total posts
552
I read a short paragraph in SS2 written by Phil Helmuth where he wrote about having a month-long discussion with Mike Matusow about decision to fold pocket aces if someone else went all-in, forcing you to call with all of your stack. He went on to say that he “ finally threw it away” without describing the particular event or situation.

I’ve always thought of pocket aces as a rapid auto-call if some shoved before me, period. But after reading that, I considered what occasions I might need to change that way if thinking.

One scenario that came to mind, and I may have already done it without remembering it, is if we’re at the bubble in a type of tournament where a certain amount of surviving players all win the same prize, such as double-or-nothing, survival, or satellite entry to a higher tournament - I have a large stack and 1 or two other players ( not in the hand) are 1x -3xBB

But I’m pondering other scenarios.

Thoughts, anyone?




Good day!
I think that only in satellites (where the prize for everyone will be the same, for example, a more expensive tournament ticket), TT tournaments, where getting into the prize zone is very important for you, you can throw pocket aces.
Otherwise, I think it's always a call.
The more people in the pot, the less equity aces have, ohhh :confused::confused::confused:
 
Psyanide14

Psyanide14

Legend
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Total posts
1,072
There are very few occasions to fold pocket AA but I have done so. Certainly bubble of a satellite where you would risk your whole stack when there are a few very short stacks left. I’ve also folded them near a bubble of a bigger buy in than I normally play as I won a ticket. A min cash was worth a lot to me and there were already 3 players all in ahead of me. To me, it was worth it. In the end I would have lost as one player hit quads with his QQ. I know I was supposed to call but I was glad to fold even if I would have won.
 
M

mellow123

Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Total posts
32
Awards
4
Online I tend to dump my A A more often than I do live but I probably do it more than I should. I tend to dump them if 3 or more go all in. I am not a big fan of A A to begin with and with 3 or more all-ins I feel the odds of 1 of them catching a better hand is not worth risking my chips unless I have a mountain in front of me. In our local home game I lose more than I win with A A also. My favorite hand is 3 5 and I bust A A quite often with that. They don't bother tell me I don't belong in the pot calling with 3 5 because they know I.m going to call with it.:D:D

Wow. I think you’re running against the odds, my friend. It’s hard to believe you lose
more than you win with aces. I know losing with pocket aces makes a larger and longer mental impression, and I can see making more money per lot on a 3-4, but are you sure you lose more pots than you win with them? In my opinion, you should change your view and become a fan of them. Lol Yeh, I get concerned when even 3 players join me on the flop, let alone 4 ( or horridly even more) .


Although I find it hard to believe ( that it’s still that high) you’re 45-50% favorite with 4 cards.

I looked up the odds of winning with pocket aces against 2,3, and 4 bands, shown below. Odds in actual scenarios can be 1-3 percent lower, given other hands are not random but premium

Players (including aa)

2 - 82.3%
3. 62.6%
4. 60.8%
5. 49.43%
 
antonis32123

antonis32123

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Total posts
5,411
Awards
19
Prreflop on a tournament satellite yes I would do it , never in any other occasion , but postflop , its a whole different story .......
 
David macdonald

David macdonald

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 22, 2017
Total posts
3,370
Awards
18
Folding aces wow omg, I think there has to be more details regarding the situation of folding aces. If aces are played correctly they should never be folded, the variance will always win more in the long run so folding them would just be crazy.

1. Never limp with aces unless there's maniacs at the table , they raise and you jam.

2. Always try to play them as aggressively as you can, if you are able to get your stack in preflop do it.

There's no set way to play any hand and you play everything depending on the situation but me personally I would never fold them .
 
slicheri93

slicheri93

Legend
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Total posts
1,108
Awards
6
Only way im folding AA if its on a bubble of a sat otherwise its a call for me, or maybe 6 people before have to be all-in and then i might fold AA with the though of 3 of them having a pair aswell and hitting trips, but so many all-ins rarely happen when holding AA
 
ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

Visionary
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Total posts
731
Awards
1
GB
I read a short paragraph in SS2 written by Phil Helmuth where he wrote about having a month-long discussion with Mike Matusow about decision to fold pocket aces if someone else went all-in, forcing you to call with all of your stack. He went on to say that he “ finally threw it away” without describing the particular event or situation.

I’ve always thought of pocket aces as a rapid auto-call if some shoved before me, period. But after reading that, I considered what occasions I might need to change that way if thinking.

One scenario that came to mind, and I may have already done it without remembering it, is if we’re at the bubble in a type of tournament where a certain amount of surviving players all win the same prize, such as double-or-nothing, survival, or satellite entry to a higher tournament - I have a large stack and 1 or two other players ( not in the hand) are 1x -3xBB

But I’m pondering other scenarios.

Thoughts, anyone?


I've only done it once. It wasn't nearing the bubble but it was nearing a ladder up with a shove from EP followed by 3 increasing re-shoves, the final one having me out-stacked.

I also had a few poker buddies watching though and wanted them to see that I would fold a big hand when nobody else would.

As it turns out, there was a set, a straight and a flush. The result doesn't actually make the choice right...but it looked insane on the stream.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY
 
MAGICUZ

MAGICUZ

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 6, 2018
Total posts
2,761
Awards
1
I have never folded aces under any circumstances and in 95% of cases I won.It's stupid to fold aces preflop))
 
Folding in Poker
Top