Folding KK preflop?

8Michael3

8Michael3

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I guess the moral of the story is, play it safe and don't risk a 6BB all-in with a trashy hand like KK

I would have to agree with Stu here. You have to play it safe with an M of 2-and KK easy fold (if youre blind).

Just teasing.

And that other comment about bubble play is also a bit weak dear man. Play to win the return is higher than just trying to cash, in the long run.
 
cjatud2012

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Anyone who thinks this is an easy call dont understand bubble play in MTT's.

I guess you could say the value of kings go down since the pot will likely be four way, but when is he gonna get a better spot than this? If he could fold to the money, it'd be different, but he really can't with only 6BB. He's all in on this orbit, and for a lot of stacks it's a trivial call ATC. So he really can't wait any longer. Get it in when he likely has the best.
 
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TheWall

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I don't know the structure, but assuming this is a regular tournament, you had a great chance to get yourself in position to make a run, you can not pass that up just to barely cash. I'd be fist pumping at my luck and calling all day.
 
bolda3

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I guess you could say the value of kings go down since the pot will likely be four way, but when is he gonna get a better spot than this? If he could fold to the money, it'd be different, but he really can't with only 6BB. He's all in on this orbit, and for a lot of stacks it's a trivial call ATC. So he really can't wait any longer. Get it in when he likely has the best.

I don't see how you can fold this here. If you're playing just to make the money you're never gonna win a big MTT. No shame in being a bubble boy-especially with a LAG re-raise on the bubble.
 
E

ElTrain

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If you're folding KK on the bubble for the sake of ending in the money, that is a -EV move. Remember, the right call makes you money each time you make it, whether variance screws you on a particular hand or in a particular tournament. Bubble play is the time to become more aggressive, because people are afraid of busting right before the money.

It's about winning, right?
 
Oskool

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shove

get the chips in. You want your chips in when you have the best odds, there is 1 hand possible that beats you at that point. Your short stacked so you have to push, unless like some other said, top _#_ gets so much, even so.
 
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j_unatrix

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KK?

:confused: only time i can even think about this play is big raise or reraise from a very tight player who rarely raises, but in general i think its a very bad play! I believe if you are too scared to play the second best preflop hand with confidence then this is not your game!
 
DOOM_TRAIN

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that is an immediate shove/call all in for me. You have to take into consideration that most short stacks are gonna push with good live cards. As they did in this situation. You were most likely the favorite there. On top of that you were on the button, which means that even if you would have busted you would have still cashed because of your late position...and whoever busted in middle position would have been your bubble boy. Bad fold imo....but hey, to each his own.
 
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chapstick

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I fold AA pre-flop all the time on FT. So don't worry about it!
 
spiderman637

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With AA,KK and AK u need to play aggresively mate...
And especially with AA & KK, u should never hesitate to go allin..
U can fold QQ,JJ,TT etc., but with AA/KK, u should always go allin if the bet is more than half of ur stack...
 
Lazmansa

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I think the point is that winning was not in the game plan and obviosly your BR is small and a cash would increase it buy a deceant %.

SO if this is what u wanted to do(to Cash)u made the right decision and cashed.:D

If u were going for the win or a deep cash (which i dont think u where) then folding KK was not the right option.Actualy it is never the right option but only if u just wanted to cash.

Well done there mate,as long as u happy,thats what counts:D

Lazmansa:D
 
D

dillingerdis

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I think the point is that winning was not in the game plan and obviosly your BR is small and a cash would increase it buy a deceant %.

SO if this is what u wanted to do(to Cash)u made the right decision and cashed.:D

If u were going for the win or a deep cash (which i dont think u where) then folding KK was not the right option.Actualy it is never the right option but only if u just wanted to cash.

Well done there mate,as long as u happy,thats what counts:D

Lazmansa:D



But theres also the chance that the pot would have been split, or 2 people wouldnt have been knocked out, then you get blinded out waiting for a hand as good as KK. Bad fold in my opinion. Theres only one hand that beats you pre, and all the rest have ground to cover to beat you.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I think the point is that winning was not in the game plan and obviosly your BR is small and a cash would increase it buy a deceant %.

SO if this is what u wanted to do(to Cash)u made the right decision and cashed.:D

If u were going for the win or a deep cash (which i dont think u where) then folding KK was not the right option.Actualy it is never the right option but only if u just wanted to cash.

Well done there mate,as long as u happy,thats what counts:D

Lazmansa:D

I have highlighted the part which is incorrect.

How many tournaments can you think of where the lowest cash places are significantly greater than the cost of the buy in?

If his goal was to break even, the correct play would be to not have entered the tournament in the first place.

Folding strong hands like AA / KK only come into play when the player is risking enormous amounts of tournament equity, which he is not in this situation.

Therefore we can only look at it in terms of a SS (6BB) folding KK preflop.. which is ultra bad!
 
Lazmansa

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I have highlighted the part which is incorrect.

How many tournaments can you think of where the lowest cash places are significantly greater than the cost of the buy in?

If his goal was to break even, the correct play would be to not have entered the tournament in the first place.

Folding strong hands like AA / KK only come into play when the player is risking enormous amounts of tournament equity, which he is not in this situation.

Therefore we can only look at it in terms of a SS (6BB) folding KK preflop.. which is ultra bad!

Trust me ,i am not folding KK in 99.99% of the time pre flop.I am just trying to point out that this thread shouldnt be about is folding KK in this situation wrong.We all know that is is the wrong move.

I think that when u have a $20 BR and u have not been playing for long u would understand why a person would do that.(still wrong but understandable playing with scared money)

Lazmansa:D
 
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So, with such overwhelming consensus that I should have called I couldn't resist digging around this hand a bit more and doing some maths. To recap, it is a large $11 MTT (2,500 entrants), top 360 or so get paid, minimum prize is $16 and it's bubble time. bankroll not an issue.

I reckon my KK are 40% to win (assuming I am against something like Ax, 99, QJ at best, AA in there at worst). If I call and win I have a stack of 24BB, if I fold I am as good as certain to cash. So, what I am effectively facing is a $16 bet at 40% chance to have a stack of 24BB.

Using the Independent Chip Model I reckon that 24BB stack is worth about $60 and I have a 40% chance of winning it; therefore the call is worth $24. Now, folding the KK would guarantee $16, but my small stack is still worth more than this - I am still in with a chance of placing higher than my current last position. As it turns out it is worth close to $20.

So there you go - the call is worth $24 and the fold $20. Clearly the +EV move here is to call, but I don't think it is quite as clear cut as some have suggested. I think my logic here is sound, but I would welcome any comments that can see a flaw in it.
 
R

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If you are playing to reach the cash then your play has been correct....
But if you play to win a tournement then you can not fold KK preflop!
 
C

chipshuffler

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If u think you are a better player than everybody else in the tournament, then this move may benefit you later on in the tournament because of your ability.

As you said, you would have only been a 45% chance to still be in the tourney and its on the bubble, so i dont really have a problem with this play.
 
ukaliks

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Alot of people are talking about folding this b4 the bubble.
If it was a SAT where eg: 45players left. Top 43 win entry to a Majour poker tourney (wsop,PCA etc) then 80% time its gonna b a fold.
If it was a normal MTT or a Majour MTT (WSOP) then im pretty much shoving with KK any time, any day. It seems so silly to fold KK in a tourney. U need chips in order to make it to the final table/win it.
Did u see this years WSOP when sum dude folded KK on the bubble? He would of had villan beat but he dreaded the bubble too much. What a fool. Didn't he know that if ur the bubble boy in the WSOP u get a free entry into next years?
 
Exit141RTe1

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I can't agree with the fold. Man, every time you play a hand you are at risk. K's in that spot....go for it is my play. If I'm wrong, next tourney.
 
TheNoob

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Even on the bubble, I shove every time here.

You may lose, but you have to play the game.

Get punched out with KK? Bad luck, move on the next game.
 
brackdog

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I would have folded them, too. Which is your best indicator that it's the wrong play.

I sneak across the bubble fairly regularly in the big FT freerolls and low buy-in MTTs, but I rarely get deeper than the first couple of pay grades and I never make the final table. I just hate playing for six hours and walking away with nothing, even if the payoff is only a dollar. That's an emotional response not a rational one, as $1 is an insignificant amount of money in my world and a ridiculous wage for 6 hours of my time. That said, I know I'm the guy that bubble wolves love to find at their table at crunch time.

Depending on stack size, I think it would be correct to fold KK late in a multi-seat satellite, where everyone gets the same payday regardless of stack size. Some of the bubble play in those tournaments is atrocious, big stacks crashing on the bubble because someone shoved with 8-8 and someone else called with Js. In those, I'll fold AA if I think I can coast across.

bd
 
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brett987

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you dont fold KK pre flop i have never heard of anyone ever doing that...also that is the #2 best starting hand in poker...also you NEVER ever see a pro fold that hand so if they dont then we shouldnt either
 
H

HipHopStoner

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6 BB is too small to wait any longer... if say you had 10 and over then maybe fold into the money. But it's all about playing for first.
 
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mig2169

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Famous coach said "Hello u play to win the game", ifit was the wsop orsomething like that maybe but never in some online mtt. chip up and u have a chance to go deep, cashing is never agoal when playing in tourny. your goal is to win or final table, everything else is gravy.
 
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