Folding KK preflop?

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The_Pup

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I am not sure if this play was dumb or inspired.

In a MTT last night I was on the button with KK with a very short stack and we were pretty well on the bubble. I am sure you know where this is going! UTG raises 3BB, MP calls, the cutoff (big stack, LAG) reraises to 6BB putting me all in if I call. I fold.

My thinking was that it seemed very likely the other two would call and since they were both also short stacked they were effectively all in. I reckon I am favourite to win but it is more likely that I will lose. They all go all in and show AQo, 88, KJs which would have put my kings at 45% to win. I can't remember the board exactly but a small stack won, knocking out the other and someone must have busted on another table because the bubble burst. If I'd stayed in I would have won but as it was I got paid and manage to creep up a few more pay grades before going out.

So, dumb or genius?
 
ukaliks

ukaliks

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I've never realy thought of folding KK preflop to a LAG raiser b4. Even if u get loads of callers behind you. You cant fold kings and wait for a better spot. You've just gotta go for it.
You mite get sucked out on or up against AA but to fold kings preflop in a late stage of a MTT is playing waaay to tight.
I'd only fold kings if a very very very tight dude was playin and I didnt have pos.
 
doops

doops

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I have no problem folding anything on the bubble if I am at risk. I hate being bubble-baby that much.
 
W

wobble

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I think it depends on the payout structure.

If it's a standard tourney structure and you are playing well within your bankroll I would definitely play AA or KK regardless. Doubling up could help you move further into the money.

I have folded KK on the bubble in a satellite MTT where the top 75 players received the same money and everyone else got nothing. That makes for some interesting bubble play.
 
8Michael3

8Michael3

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KK-bad fold IMO. I dont do it. QQ yes sometimes. KK AA preflop fold means im playing above my bankroll or as you said theres an allin and the huge payout bubbble (thats a joke unless is a main event tourney) is gonna bust.

Everyman to himself. KK fold with 2 alliins I like my odds-two aces missing from the deck or an underpair and three aces left- easy call
 
JLtrooper

JLtrooper

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I would call here. Since you are on the bubble, you have a decision to make: do you want to barely be ITM or do you want a chance to make a deep run? You said you are the very short stack, so each orbit is killing your stack, and KK on the button is pretty much best case scenario.

At this point, you know the table fairly well, so you should realize that a standard 3x raise UTG is something like AQ, AJ, A10. The LAG player is making a min raise with position, which tells me his hand isn't much better than the UTG player.

Like someone said, it is very likely that they could be holding an Ax, or smaller pairs. This puts you in a great spot preflop because they are stealing outs and also gives you a chance to quadruple up, which doesn't happen on the bubble often.

Also, if you shove in this spot, you will likely force either the UTG raiser or MP caller to fold, giving you great pot odds with all the dead money.

In my opinion, you have to make this call, because you have to be trying to make a run at the real money.
 
K

kevkojak

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I had a long, rather drawn out argument about something similar when I first joined Cardschat. Another new member was talking about how he'd folded KK in a cash game because he JUST KNEW his opponent had AA. (Pre-flop...with one bet in the pot... he knew the 2nd best hand was beat? ok.) I told him he was either talking out of his ar*e or playing way out of his bankroll folding so easily.
This is a similar situation. I dont doubt the story is true, but I stick with my initial feeling. KK is an unfoldable hand pre-flop unless your on the bubble and the bottom pay-out ('coz thats all you'll manage 90% of the time if your so short stacked on the bubble) is a significant amount of money to your bank roll.
Personally it'd have to be a pay-out in the hundreds for me to be sweating about shoving with KK, or a very juicy prize package (top 10 advance to... etc etc).
IMO, with less than 6 BB's left, you should have thanked your lucky stars you got a premium hand to get your money in with (especially with 2 callers + blinds), and hopefully put yourself in a position to make a decent run at the cash.
As it stands, I hope you made the payout spots.
 
PattyR

PattyR

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This is an EASY CALL, your shortstacked, on the bublle..so ppl are raising with shit...what better time to triple your stack than to ship it in with KK...even if u get sucked out on and lose..its still a play you have to make..are you trying to win this MTT or just trying to get your buyin back plus 50 cents...if its me im going for the win no question....so not genius at all to me..more like dum dum lol
 
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Crudelis

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Unless the buy-in was so large that not making it ITM would cripple you life savings then you made a bad fold as simple as that. With a chip stack of 6 BBs then you should be pushing with anything higher than Ace Jack. (That is if you wanted to have any hope of going deep.
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

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I know it's been said already, but this is a call 99.5% of the time. Just cashing in a MTT is really not that much better than bubbling, especially if you can double or triple up and potentially score a bigger cash. If it's a satty tournament, then folding on the bubble to two or three all-in's is more reasonable. Still, it's really hard to muck that there, I'm glad it worked out for you though.
 
E

EmoFrog

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u ship it all in, all the time. cash or mtt bro
 
JCW78

JCW78

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So you had 6bb and you were pretty sure the other two were calling? So that would put 24bb in the pot and you passed on that to make a little rather than take your shot and possibly win a lot. Harder to win a tournament with 6bb as opposed to 24bb.

I have had trouble with online tournaments but you put me in a casino everything changes. These are the people I am looking to exploit. The people who turn nitty and are scared to put in one chip just so they can make the money. Play to win, if you bubble oh well, atleast you gave yourself a chance to win as opposed to just getting a few dollars back.
 
burntrider

burntrider

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This will usually get me into trouble, but in this spot I'd have to call in hopes of doubling up or even better.
 
T

The_Pup

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Thanks for all the wise words and advice - I thought that was the reply I'd get!

In answer to some questions, it was an online £10 tourney, 1500 or so entrants with regular (top 180?) payout with the lowest prize being, I think, $13. I was well within my bankroll.

In my defence, my lovely stack (about 20BB) had taken a kicking the previous hand to some dumb-arse suckout and I was in danger of tilting big time. I was in the mood to shove with ATC before I saw the kings with that feeling of almost wanting to lose, such was the frustration. I think the kings rather threw me and I seemed to think myself into a corner - to some extent it was an emotional decision, as to go out then having played pretty well would have left me a jibbering fool. I felt I was in consolation prize territory anyway and $11 was better than £0. I know it was the wrong longterm decision as there were 24BB plus antes up for grabs which would have put me back in.

I promise I won't do it again. Honest.
 
H

holypendant

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as i juz posted on the other thread regarding using entire clock to stall the time, i rmember i once hold AA n KK during bubble time. i pratically use my entire clock to stall the time until i was guranteed an itm n click all in.. i think there's no right or wrong but for me, i wuld choose the conservative way to retreat n charge the enemy again when i was guranteed not a loser...
 
cjatud2012

cjatud2012

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It sucks so bad when you've played so well the entire tourney only to get sucked out on :-( It messes with your head-- I know it has for me, it's hard to get over a bad beat sometimes. But hopefully we can both learn to shrug it off and keep playing our A game! That's the only way to score big cashes.

Good luck in the future, glad to hear all this helped.
 
BeaverTrump

BeaverTrump

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All depends on level bubble. But I think in this situation you have arrived correctly
 
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sheepy10

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if you intend to win or go very deep in tourneys, you have to push with this hand. im shoving all day long here.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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I guess the moral of the story is, play it safe and don't risk a 6BB all-in with a trashy hand like KK
 
jmnissell

jmnissell

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Late in a tournament, people start getting desperate. Pocket kings on the button, I'm surprised you would fold. There's only one hand you don't want to see. I know that you want to make it in the money, but who's to say that if you make that call you don't end up winning the whole tourney. Tough fold...
 
O

only_bridge

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Anyone who thinks this is an easy call dont understand bubble play in MTT's.
 
ljove

ljove

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I was bubbled out for a few times with pocket pairs.
Pocket pair on the bubble online is something like get out of the money
 
AtiFCOD

AtiFCOD

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Never fold a KK preflop especially if you are with short stack.
If 2 players go allin, there's a big chance that they have like AQ AJ, so small chance of A on the board. Theres a lil chance that someone has AA. Against QQ,JJ... etc you have 80% chance of winning.
 
B

BlackSmurfS

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I will never fold KK before the flop. This is verry bad because Somethimes we lose...but kid KK is stil KK , and like i said I WILL NEVER FOLD KK BEFORE THE FLOP.
If i'm a looser thats is , but KK is a hard hand .
 
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